Thought the Dream could use our support in the polls. Go to www.nba.com and there is a poll for "Who is the greatest center of all time?" Current standings as of 10:15am today 11/7/03: Wilt Chamberlain 38% Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 23% Shaq 22% Hakeem Olajuwon 10% Bill Russel 7% George Mikan 0% Vote for Hakeem only if you really believe!!! Otherwise forget you ever saw this post.
Between 3-5 sounds about right for Hakeem IMO. I don't get particularly upset seeing him behind Shaq, or even Russell and I would be suprised to see him ranked in the top 2. Since not all of those guys played in the same era, I think the only way you can objectively compare them is by their accomplishments vs. their own respective era. The whole "if Hakeem played in Jabar's era or if Russell played in Shaq's era" arguments don't tend to hold water very well because of the subjectiveness. Wilt and Jabbar were more dominant v. their eras than Hakeem was v. his. I don't think most have a problem with either of them being ahead of Hakeem. With regards to Shaq and Russell, I think they you could rank them, and Hakeem, anywhere from 3-5. Ultimately, Shaq has a few dominant years left in him probably. I would not be at all suprised to see NBA historians rank Shaq ahead of Hakeem eventually, if he isn't already. Overall, Hakeem might be the best all aroud center of all of them and IMO, probably the best defensive player. Ultimately though, some of those centers were more dominant scorers, passers and rebounders. And of course, some of those centers won more titles. Always an interesting discussion.
The man was great. So, too, all these guys. I am shocked, on a national vote, he would have more support than Russ -- wow!
Just wanted to post some Career highlights for these guys: Bill Russel Russel is the greatest winner in the history of pro sports with 11 NBA Titles in 13 years. Even with that fact in mind Russel himself once stated: "Wilt could do my role better than I could". Kareem Abdul Jabbar After he became the all time points leader in NBA history Kareem's supporters tried to say that he was better than Wilt, however the argument did not hold up to scrutiny. At 7'2" Kareem was not as good a rebounder as either Russel or Chaimberlain. As far as titles go Kareem's titles were all won while he had either one of the two greatest point guards in history (Oscar Robertson & Magic Johnson). Wilt Chamberlain During his unparalleled career Wilt rewrote the record books. No other player before or since has even come close to the all around domination that Wilt put on the NBA. In spite of all the rule changes to help offensive players in the 28 years since he retired Wilt still holds 50 NBA records - more than any other player in history. Among Wilt's most astonishing achievements was the only Double Triple-Double in NBA history: 22 points 25 rebounds and 21 assists on February 2, 1968 vs. Detroit. Wilt won the assist title in 1967-68 and made the all defense team (the award started in his 10th season) in his last 2 years. http://www.wi-travel-guide.com/sports-AV-1504-B.html Jordan beat him out for rookie of the year honors, but this number one draft pick can compete on the same level as his airness...and he has the 2 rings to prove it. He left college after his junior year, following his selection as a 1984 consensus First Team all-American. He was also the 1983 NCAA Tournament MVP. In his first year in the NBA, he was named to the All-Rookie First Team, after finishing as runner up to Jordan in ROY voting. He has had a steady and productive career. At the end of the 1995-1996 season he broke Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's record for career blocks of 3,189. It looks like he will demolish this career record. He had 3,740 as of the end of the 2000-01 season. He was the ninth NBA player to amass 20,000 career points (26,511 through the 2000-01 season) and 10,000 career rebounds (13,382 through the 2000-01 season), but the first player to ever have 2000 career blocks and steals. He had an incredible year in 1993-94 winning the MVP Award, Defensive Player of the Year and the NBA Finals MVP. He was the Defensive Player of the Year in 1992-93 as well. Hakeem is 5 time member of the All-Defensive First Team (1987,1988,1990,1993 and 1994) and 4 time member of the All-Defensive Second Team (1985, 1991, 1996 and 1997). He shares two post-season blocks records: the NBA Finals record for most blocks in a game with 8 against the Boston Celtics in Game 5 of the 1986 NBA Finals and the NBA Playoffs record for most blocks in a game with 10 against the L.A. Lakers in Game 2 of the 1990 Western Conference first round. Along with Ralph Sampson, Olajuwon led the Rockets to the Finals in 1986, only to lose to the Celtics. He finally won it all in back to back years in 1994 and 1995. In 1996 he was named to the All-NBA Second Team for the third time (1986 and 1990) after five selections to the First Team (1987-1989, 1993-94). 1997 saw The Dream return to the All-NBA First Team. He was also named to the third team three times (1991, 1995 and 1999). Hakeem is a 12 time all star, including in 1997 when he started for the team, beating out Shaq. 1996 also saw Hakeem sign a lucrative 5 year contract extension worth around 60 million dollars. He signed the deal while on Dream Team III, which he was finally able to play on when his US citizenship went through. Even though he played for his national team, he was allowed to play on the US team because he was a minor when he played for the Nigerian team. Hakeem is an all-around good guy. He has his own shoe, but doesn't let the shoe company charge more than 35 dollars per pair! Olajuwon has led the league in rebounding twice (1990 and 1992). Hakeem also has the distinction of recording one of only 3 quadruple doubles in NBA history with 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocks and 10 assists against Milwaukee on 3/29/90. After being named to the NBA's 50 All-Time Greatest Players List, Hakeem is a lock for the Hall of Fame. http://mysite.verizon.net/vzn05m7m/nba/olaj.html
I hate not being able to edit, but this portion is talking about Hakeem in case you didn't get it initially.
Wilt was THE all-time freak. I think Olajawon is on a par with Jabbar. Maybe just a hair below. I have to wonder if Shaq's game has improved so much from the finals against Houston. I think he has shown some growth but I do not think he is good enough to dominate Dream in his prime. Wilt would dominate any one. Jabbar anyone but Wilt or Russell. Russell could probably shut down anyone in sneakers but had a limited offensive repertoire. Shaq's legacy will be similar to Wilt's as a monster on the court. He has no Russell to gauge him against. Yao may be his Russell but that remains to be seen. Shaq's legacy will always be tainted by not being as good as he could be and only being good enough. 1. Wilt 2. Jabbar 3. Dream 4. Russel 5. Shaq
Because he’s playing now and because he presents a unique challenge to the NBA in enforcing the charge rule, I can see Shaq ahead of Hakeem in a national poll. But, isn’t it interesting that Hakeem played against and knocked two of the guys on this poll out of the play-offs?
Russel is really a humble guy. no wonder he's the greatest winner. Wilt was a great regular season guy but his playoff performance was worse. Also I am not sure he was a better teamballer than Russel.
HR... Good thread, interesting read about Dream... just reminded me of the good ol' days when the dream dominated the league with his freak athletic ability. In his prime, the dream would and could dominate Shaq on the offensive side, and Shaq would dominate the dream on his offensive side... so I would have to call them a draw. Wilt Kareem Dream / Shaq Russel Admiral / Duncan
Dream better than Wilt? Only in your dream! Years ago I talked to a guy who used to play with Wilt in the 60s, and he told me that Wilt would score on a double team with ease. And he was constantly triple teamed in his prime. This guy is the greatest center ever to play the game and arguably the best player ever. Wilt mentioned that once Dream, Sir Charles, and Clyde all came to him to express their opinion that he is THE BEST player ever in their opinion.
If you surrounded Wilt with half of the talents that surrounded Bill, Wilt would have brought Philadelphia 10 rings with ease.
1. Russell 2. Wilt 3. Kareem 4. Hakeem 5. Robinson 6. Shaq Russell won many more championships and countless head-to-head battles versus Wilt. You can argue that Wilt had much better scoring stats, but Russell played with many good scoring teammates and deferred to them. I think it takes a man to defer to others for the good of the team, which is why I'm putting Robinson, who deferred to Duncan to win 2 championships, above Shaq as well. Shaq also can't shoot FTs for ****. Robinson was a far better defender and all-around center.
1. Wilt 2. Russel 3. Jabbar 4. Dream 5. Shaq Shaq may dominate due to his size, but he he still doesn't have the skill level of the other 4. Teams can essentially play games w/ Shaq and shut him down somewhat (if the refs don't allow him to just walk over people). The other 4 ... you couldn't do much to stop them. JMHO
That's a big IF. I wonder why Wilt's team couldn't develop some talent in such a long time. Wilt's domination hurted other player's development. As great as MJ, he hadn't win until he began to trust his teammate. The same applied to Dream. Basketball is not a one-man team. Otherwise Wilt should at least win one of Rusell's 11 rings.
Compared to Hakeem, Shaq is obviously the more dominant scorer. Hakeem had countless more moves, but Shaq just dominates. And he is likely as good, if not a better, rebounder. Although Hakeem isn't far behind in either category. Hakeem is undoubtedly the better defender. Interestingly, Shaq's career high in assists in only 9. I find this pathetic given the talent he has played with and the double/triple teams he has gotten throughout his career. Regardless, Hakeem is definitely the better passer. Plus, unlike Hakeem, Shaq has never carried a team on his own. Still, given that Shaq is still playing, has such a dominating style, and impacts the game in the two more obvious areas - scoring and rebounding - I think it is fine that he is ahead of Hakeem, although it probably shouldn't be by 10+%
