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Hakeem Olajuwon should be top 10 in NBA

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by D-rock, May 15, 2020.

  1. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

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    LMFAO. You’re a riot. I didn’t ignore Jerry West, Kareem and Webber, I just don’t particularly care. Did they do a deep dive into all of these guys careers and spend hours going over footage? Or did someone ask them a question and they threw a list together off the top of their head? I mean you put a Slam magazine list from 2011. Seriously?

    You can get 1000 different top 10 lists and they are all going to be different. You could poll today’s NBA players and get 50 guys telling you Kobe was the best basketball player of all time. It doesn’t mean it’s right.

    I’m not being ignorant about Oscar Robertson. For the 15th time I’ve said he’s a legend. Him being an originator doesn’t mean that other players can’t surpass him. You’re having a real hard time with that. Same with the idea that stats are equivalent from era to era. They are not. 50 rebounds in a game in the 60’s is not the same as 2015. It doesn’t mean that Chamberlain isn’t impressive, it just means that’s he’s not twice as good as Hakeem Olajuwon. He’s probably not better than Hakeem at all.

    I mean you’re comparing things like Magic winning 2 more rings or Russell winning 10 more rings or “insert name” has 2 more MVPs as some kind of metric that proves dominance. It doesn’t. Lebron didn’t play against Magic. Jordan didn’t play against Russell. Even if they did, they would have had completely different teammates. All those things matter when comparing players and spitting out a bunch of accolades and stats doesn’t really mean anything without context. And on top of that I only said Lebron is better than Oscar, I have yet to compare him to these other people your naming.

    For starters here’s a site that actually digs into players strengths and weaknesses far better than you or I could. We don’t have to agree with any of those rankings but at least thought actually went in to it, rather than just paper stats and fuzzy memories.

    https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
     
    #101 BigM, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  2. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Support your argument.

    You not caring about West and Kareem's comments (both who played with Oscar, NBA coach/front office experience, created legacies in their own right) tells me you have myopia on this subject.

    You put down metrics like number of rings, MVPs, scoring titles, etc. But these gave been the traditional metrics to determine GOAT in the past but because this does not support your stance on Lebron you offer your preferred metrics.

    Backpick is "one" reputable source but some of their criteria is based on subjective metrics as well.

    As for Lebron vs. Oscar, YOU challenged me to name ONE thing that Oscar did better than Lebron. I named FIVE things that Oscar did better so you started moving the goal posts.

    In either case, I can agree to disagree.

    But you're wrong. LOL
     
  3. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

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    Your comprehension level is puzzling.

    I asked the question what does Oscar Robertson do better than Lebron and you came up with a bunch of triple double statistics that I already told you are inflated by pace of play. The Big O got somewhere around an average of 30 more offensive plays per game than Lebron does. Do you understand what that means?

    You didn’t come up with 5 things Oscar is better at, you just listed accolades like leading the league in assists. Yes, in 1965 he was better at creating assists then Lebron James who was not alive. Congratulations. Do you not see the fundamental flaw in comparing people who didn’t remotely play against each other using statistics? What we can use is our eyes and available video.

    Oscar is the better free throw shooter. I’ll give you that. Maybe mid range jump shooter. That’s the end of the list.

    Do you want to bring up championships? Oscar has 1. Lebron has 3. I don’t need to move the goal post. What else? MVP’s? Oscar has 1. Lebron has 4. Finals MVP’s Lebron has 3, Oscar doesn’t have any, because the best player on his team that year was Kareem. All star appearances? Lebron has 19, Oscar has 12. We can keep going....

    But like I said they didn’t play against each other, so those awards as a comparison don’t really mean anything. But moving goal posts, why would I even need to? I’m helping you out.
     
  4. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Holy crap, you state that leading League in assists does not count because Lebron was not alive. When has Lebron ever led NBA in assists? Ever??? Has Lebron ever led NBA in scoring AND assists in same season. NOPE. Because only 1 other player has done it other than Oscar, Tiny Archibald. Only Harden has come close to doing this since.

    Lebron essentially plays the point but there is no conversation where Lebron is the best point to ever play the game. That conversation begins and ends with Magic and Oscar.

    How many triple doubles does Lebron have? Has Lebron ever averaged a triple double for a season?

    No, he has not. No player has until Russ did it 3 consecutive seasons over 50 years later.

    Do not give me your pace BS because if Russ could do it then why can't the GOAT Lebron?

    And rings only happen when the player has a great team. So that is where Lebron has advantage over Oscar, Lebron not only has played for some of the greatest stacked teams in NBA history but he's also personally ensured which teammates he would play with.

    And Lebron has played 17 seasons so his longevity is another plus on his side. But counting all stars is silly if one guy played 5-8 years more than average NBA career.

    Please dont help me, work on yourself.
     
  5. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    lebron led the league in PER 6x, WS 5x, and VORP 9x, with similarly dominant league-leading playoff numbers.

    oscar led PER zero times and WS 1x (no VORP on bbref for that era). playoffs he led PER zero times and WS zero times but did lead WS/48 in a playoffs where he played one 6 game series.
     
  6. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    These numbers mean little without context of the caliber of players around both Lebron and Oscar.

    Lebron played with much better teammates for all or most of his career. Dwayne Wade and Ray Allen won a ring before teaming up with Lebron. And both, plus Bosh, Irving, Love, AD were all allstars before Lebron too. Name another all star that played with Oscar on Cincinnati Royals? Oscar only teamed up with another great at the end of his career when he went to Milwaukee and won a ring with a young Kareem (known then as Lew Alcindor).
     
  7. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

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    Dude. This thing is going way way over your head and talk about moving goal posts. Sheesh. You brought up championships, not me. Now they’re all on the teammates? Got it. MVP’s too?

    Just to be clear, Oscar Robertson is a better player then Lebron James because he led the league in assists multiple times and Lebron didn’t? Neat.

    Even if you don’t adjust for pace and just look at the barebones old school stats, Lebron averages more points per game at a higher percentage, rebounds are equal and Oscar has him in assists. But that’s such a terrible way of evaluating 2 players that it doesn’t really matter. When you start getting into the advanced stats that were posted above me Lebron blows past him. This isn’t close.
     
    #107 BigM, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  8. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    PER is about as teammate-independent as a stat can be. guys like wilt, kareem, jordan, and lebron have led that stat for years and years on lesser teams and on great teams. if anything, great teammates occasionally hold you back by taking some of your touches. the place where Win Shares can depend on teammates is defensive win shares, but that is usually good defensive teammates giving a slight bump to poor defensive teammates. since lebron has spent most of his career being the best or one of the best defenders on his team, it is unlikely he would have received this boost (certainly not from kyrie or love).
     
  9. pippsux

    pippsux Member

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    What?!!!!
    Duncan had what was left of David Robinson (still pretty good), to carry his water for the first title, then had all world players in Ginobli and Parker. Dream on that Spurs team, with Robinson carrying his water, and Parker and Ginobli as side kicks and Pop as coach....If thats not an all time dynasty, I dont know what is.
     
  10. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    I disagree that Lebron has been the best defender on his teams. His teammates who are better defenders:

    Shane Battier, Udonis Haslem, Tristan Thompson, Jeff Green, Anthony Davis, Danny Green are better defenders IMO.

    Bosh and Wade were also very good defenders. Lebron was at his best defensively during his Heat years and while he is not the best defender on his Lakers team this season, his defense has been much better than his time with Cavs.
     
  11. fattz

    fattz Member

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    I am enjoying the banter...
    but to be fair MOST do not the skill set of Oscar’s teammates. Other than at least some could finish because of the asset totals.
     
  12. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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  13. Scola Scoops

    Scola Scoops Member

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    And his greatness should be further respected given that for all of these All-NBA and all-star calibre players that have sought him out, none have managed to replicate his fluidity and footwork in the post.
     
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  14. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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  15. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Dream simply dominated the greatest Big men of his era, many top 10 centers all time.



    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    Robert Parrish
    Patrick Ewing
    David Robinson
    Shaquille O'Neal
    Dikembe Mutombo
    Karl Malone
    Charles Barkley

    Kareem may be the greatest all time scorer and have 4 more rings but Dream almost swept Showtime Lakers with Magic and Kareem at their zenith.

    Dream NEVER played with another All Star during his prime and still won 2 championships. No top 10 player can say the same.

    MJ had Pippen/Grant/Rodman
    Kareem had Oscar/Magic/Worthy/Wilkes
    Bill Russell had Cousy/Sharman/Sam Jones/Havlicek/Tom Heinsohn/Ramsey/K.C. Jones
    Wilt had Elgin Baylor/Jerry West
    Magic had Kareem/Worthy/Wilkes/McAdoo
    Shaq had Penny/Kobe/Wade
    Kobe had Shaq/Gasol
    Duncan had Robinson/Ginobli/Parker
    Bird had McHale/Parrish/D.J./Walton
    Dr. J had Moses/Andrew Toney

    Lebron has had Dwayne Wade/Chris Bosh/Kyrie Irving/Kevin Love/Anthony Davis - at least 2 All Stars everytime he won one of 3 championships.

    Steph has had at least 3 All Stars for his 3 championships (Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Kevin Durant - not counting Iggy or Boogie).
     
  16. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    No Oscar and no Lebron. But not a bad list.

     
  17. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Admiral is waaaaay too high.

     
  18. Pass 1st shoot 2nd

    Pass 1st shoot 2nd Contributing Member

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    Here's 10 I put ahead, in not so much a particular order;

    MJ
    Lebron
    Magic
    Russell
    Kareem
    Shaq
    Kobe
    Larry Bird
    Tim Duncan

    That's not a popular opinion here, it's just mine.
     
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  19. Xerobull

    Xerobull Contributing Member
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    I disagree with Russell and Kobe being on this list. Russell is a relic of an era that doesn't compare to anything from 1980-on. Kobe is as much a product of charisma and marketing as he is of skill (which he was good, but not top 10). But as you said, it's your opinion. :)
     
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