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Grizzlies: Are we just gonna ignore?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Carl Herrera, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    FWIW I do think James has legit choked several times but I believe the Spurs game was a real concussion. The very slow decision making(for a guy who is normally a master at this) and unforced passes into the stands or directly to the opponent to me prove he was suffering after effects from the Gasol elbow. Choking is one thing but he literally seemed to be in a different world - something was very off there.

    To add to the highlights, he also put the team on his back and posted 45 and 9 against a 73 win Warriors team to get his team's only win in the series and narrowly missed out on two triple doubles(including a 38 point one) in losses against that same 73 win Warriors team. James isn't the same cold blooded killer as CP, but the narrative of him being a choker rests very heavily on the OKC series early in his career, the Clippers comeback he wasn't a part of(because he choked), and the Spurs series loss that I think he was concussed. We are talking like 5 games in a 105 game sample. So like 5% risk that he sucks in a game but in general he is good for 26+/ 7 / 7 averages against playoff teams. The fact he hasn't won more on the strength of those good performances I think speaks more to the talent level around him(thanks, Murray). Aside from declining human fart machine Dwight Howard(who's value to the team was debatable), Harden never really had his own team surrounded by a championship caliber players until CP3 rolled into town and we added PJ and Luc.
     
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  2. what

    what Member

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    Here's the thing: it's just a hunch, but I believe harden and others (kyrie for example) use the first 3 quarters of a game as building a max contract portfolio. He needs to maintain a 25 point average, and the nba is hardly ever won in the first 3 quarters anyway.

    By the time the fourth quarter roles around, harden has used all his energy "getting his" that he has nothing left. Not to mention the fact that his decision-making skills are well-below his actual talent. So he becomes a settler and a turnover machine.

    What I mainly fault Harden for and others like Kyrie, is that basketball to them is more about what is going to get them the biggest payday rather than what is best for the team. And if you watched harden for any length of time, you know I'm telling the truth.

    It's one reason that I respect Westbrook so much. The guy only cares about winning. His problem is that he doesn't trust anybody more than himself, but he is such a beast that it often doesn't matter. Westbrook is about winning, that's all he cares about. Harden, Kyrie, care about the paycheck and the fame.
     
  3. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    I do not like the term 'choker' too much myself. There are different circumstances to it.

    I am thinking Harden puts too much of his stamina into the regular season to prove himself to the public and to win MVP.

    He does not know how to 'time' his best performances, they always come in the regular season.

    Well, it cannot be helped.
     
  4. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Well, you are getting closer but I do not think Harden is that bad in the fourth now, he has improved. But the stamina stuff seems to be real.

    And MDA is a god darn 7-8 man rotation enthusiast.
     
  5. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    That doesn't even make sense - how can Westbrook only care about winning but not trust anyone but himself? You may call it trust issues(like that is a valid excuse - ha) but others may call it selfish - neither are the stuff of winning teams so clearly Westbrook isn't ONLY about winning because if he was he would get over himself for the betterment of the team. If he is 'such a beast that is doesn't matter', why does Westbrook's teams go out with a whimper in the playoffs? My career is building high performing teams in business and I can tell you Westbrook's trust issue are not unusual for high performers and generally they don't make good team players which works if you are maybe a boxer but it is a problem in team sports.

    At the end of the day he suffers from the same faults as Kyrie and Harden though - their approach to what it takes to win in the moment lacks necessary context. They pass when they should shoot, they shoot when they should pass, they don't see the bigger picture when the game is on the line. Harden is a good example of this - he will always try to make the right play so in a tight game the defense might double him off a bad shooter - Harden makes the pass to the bad shooter who screws up the play and the team loses - people say Harden has to take that shot but in his eyes he made the correct basketball play...but that was what the defense wanted him to do - the right basketball play was made, but you did what the defense wanted you to do so the bigger picture is you hurt your team's chances to win. The right basketball play isn't always the right play for your team. Seeing that bigger picture takes a lot of experience - and frankly few players get it. Jordan got it. CP3 gets it. Curry gets it. Lebron gets it....but I don't think Durant gets it, I don't think Kobe got it, and I don't think Harden, Kyrie, or Westbrook get it. It doesn't mean they can't win titles, but it means their teams will have to win despite their best player's natural inclinations.
     
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  6. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    You should check out the interview Zach Lowe did with D'antoni recently - they talk about Harden's stamina and how to preserve him for the big moments in the playoffs. D'antoni does a good job explaining how it's a very fine line to walk.

    Personally I think this style of offense Houston runs where Harden and CP and to a lesser extent Gordon have to create for everyone else on the roster is very taxing on those 3 players and the team struggles mightily without those guys playing at their best. Play Harden or CP light minutes in the regular season and the team will quickly get into a funk. It's a different story if we have other players who have more versatile skill sets but frankly no one else on the roster outside of those 3 guys can be trusted to even dribble the ball. In that sense we are kind of the antithesis of the Spurs - everyone in Houston has a very specific role that is super narrow with one or two things they are good at while San Antonio fills their roster with guys who are okay at a lot of things but don't excel at any one thing. As a result San Antonio tends to cruise through regular season wins with a plug and play roster that always competes regardless of who is out while Houston's team play is greatly effected by the health of their players since everyone has a specific role and it's hard to replace those roles on the fly. Houston's ceiling however is much higher if healthy.
     
  7. what

    what Member

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    I don't know man. if he would have only cares about himself he would have ditched OKC. the guy has more heart than I seen in any player just about since Allen Iverson and before that maybe Derrick Rose before he got injured.
    I know you hate Westbrook but the dude is all heart.
     
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  8. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    I am also among the few who still believe in Westbrook but boy he is Turn over prone.
     
  9. CriscoKidd

    CriscoKidd Member

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    Russell Westbrook hearts triple doubles more than he does winning.
     
  10. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #210 hakeem94, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  11. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    4th quarter points 2018

    Kemba 9.7
    Lebron 8.4
    Lou Will 7.7

    9. Harden 7.0
    28. Conley 5.8
    64. Marc 4.3

    120.CP3 3.4
    https://stats.nba.com/players/tradi...on=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season&Period=4
     
  12. Downtown Sniper

    Downtown Sniper Contributing Member

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    Are we just going to ignore that absolutely horrendous out of bounds play to win the game by JB.
     
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  13. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    MDA's system always relies on an attacking PG, a guy who can get to the rim, shoot, and set up his teammates. That's a lot to ask, but that's how MDA teams succeed. From Nash, to Linsanity, to Harden and Paul. His best offensive player has to be the ball handler. That's why he didn't do very well in LA (Kobe) and in NY (Melo). In that sense, MDA as an "offensive genius" is overrated because he is limited to a rare breed of highly talented guard. But he is great at maximizing that kind of players when he has one.

    I was against getting MDA as our coach. But looking back, now I realize that it was a smart move. Harden was exactly the kind of player MDA could use to create a great offense. Sure enough, one of the first things MDA did after he came was to name Harden the official PG of the team.
     
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  14. what

    what Member

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    The grizzlies win going away if Mike doesn't foul out. Oh well. This is the new nba.
     
  15. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

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    never mind you are still NO 1
     
  16. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    In his world yes.

    Portland
    Clippers
    Grizz

    Same record. Cannot believe Portland loses and still got to be top.
     
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  17. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    Hahahaha what in the hell is this? You have the worst NBA takes in the world. Straight up basketballholic bad. James Harden has been a top 5 4th quarter player since he was a rookie. His 4th quarter +- is off the charts, and always has been.

    How the hell is that guy in Atlanta that is better than Giannis doing? :p
     
    #217 RudyTBag, Nov 23, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
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  18. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    Russell Westbrook only cares about WINNING guys hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha... :D

    Holy Lord what universe are you in? Picard sees 5 lights! :eek: (There are only 4!)
     
  19. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Atlanta tanking for Zion
    It’s obvious
    @Zboy
     
  20. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

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    2 losses in a row
     

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