Excellent points from many on this thread, and I think that most of on this thread are really still recovering from the shock and severe heartbreak of Charles' injury. Myself, last night I was thinking objectively about the situation, but after reading all these articles and hearing Chuck's quotes, I felt like shedding a few for the Chuckster... Truly one of the greatest to play the game. The following paragraph sums up that greatness PERFECTLY: At the NBA's 50th anniversary celebration in 1997, when a non-believer asked the great Elgin Baylor whether Barkley belonged among the top 50 players in history, he was greeted by a stare. "Maybe in the top five," Baylor replied. Later that same weekend, Wilt Chamberlain pointed across a room at Barkley and said, "I would like to have gone to war against Russell with that boy on my side." And can you believe what Chuck said at the end of the day... "Just what America needs, another unemployed black man." Oh man... he's NEVER going to be replaced... Good luck Charles! ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Off topic really - Why do people feel it necessary to apologize for religious thoughts? Oh, I'm not really religious but... Charles had an accident. If he hadn't played it wouldn't have happened. There was no way to foresee it or he wouldn't have played and gone down this way. Accidents happen. But I am in no way against the theory that some things happen for a reason. Better in Philly than elsewhere for Chuck - that is all he is saying. At least he got that satisfaction of ending it where he started it - and with honor and dignity before a crowd that gave him six ovations. Some were standing ovations. Nicely done, Philly! We miss you already, Chuck.
will, just wanted to offer a word to you. in my belief.... everything truly does happen for a reason. i think that He has a plan for all of us, cb4 included. but he has also given us free will and choices in life as well. that said, i don't necessarily think that he knows every little thing that we will do. that is where we have to make our choices. and that is also where certain hurdles - in this case, cb4's injury - comes into play. no, i don't think He willed for him to be injured. then again, i also don't believe cb4's true purpose in this life is just to bae a ball player. it was just a verse in a chapter, a chapter in a book. now that that chapter is closed, it is time for him to move on to another. His will, Will, is only for us to succeed in this life. it is, however, our choice whether we do it or not....
verse, how does that explain those people who have led a righteous life, been upstanding citizens, and then die at a young age at the hands of a criminal or a drunk driver? Try explaining to them that God's plan is for everyone to succeed, and if they don't, it's their fault.
My opinion: There is a difference between God's will and fate. God knows the fate of everything's He's created. He doesn't necessarily will things concerning his creation to happen, but of course He could (and has) alter fate if He so chooses. Barkley's possible career ending injury was fate....well, maybe it was. (Only God knows for sure.) [This message has been edited by BlastOff (edited December 09, 1999).]
Our religious friends like verse attempt to wiggle around the difficulties of a "God-willed" world in much the same way that St. Augustine did. I will not go into this debate any further, I just have a message to the non-religious types. I agree with you completely. However, some folks need religion to help them keep their sanity. It gives them something to live for. Some of us reject that because it requires, well, a leap of faith. Those that insist on consistency and reason throughout their lives understand that faith is an excuse for baseless or at least indefensable beliefs. So my plea is thus: let the religous folks believe. They are happy that way. Don't let the blatant disregard for reason bother you, you don't have to agree with them and you don't have to listen to them. And again, this site should stick to b-ball. [This message has been edited by Plato (edited December 09, 1999).]
SpaceCity - Is there any other God other than the one who is best known as "The Creator"? That would be the God. I just want to post my two cents before this thread is closed. I think everyone has there belief of how much control they have over there environment and lives. Everyone has the right to believe what they would like. Pointing to 20 different philosophers and their ideas of free will and predestination are not the answer to this. Here's my limited rational explanation of Free will and Pre destination. Does God have the ability to will good or bad things on people and the world? Yes. Does God have the ability to inspire people to do good or bad things? Yes. Does God know what will happen to people and the world all the way to the end of time? Yes. Do people have the ability to shape their destiny and future? Yes. Do people have the ability to alter God's plan? No. Can people plead to God to change his plan? Yes. Will God change his plan because of some person's pleading? Yes. If he sees fit. This all boils down to one thing, do we have the freedom to make our own decisions... free will? or are we destined to become what is planned by God? This is best answered in the similitude of a virtual bubble. Imagine yourself inside an area of space equivalent to a large bubble, maybe 100 feet in diameter. Within this bubble you can do whatever YOU WILL. However, outside of this bubble, God controls and guides the entirity of this 'outside' based on his plan and your actions within the bubble. Thus you can control everything around your immediate control, but the rest is up to God, based on your actions and appeals to him. This illustrates that God knows what will happen, but doesn't will or force the outcome on his own, but rather the individual carves out his destiny in relation to God's master plan. ..................... Another note to this, in regards to someones response/question whether GOd willed Mansen to kill or racists and bigots to hate. These things are simple to explain. God does not will any evil. The situations listed above are simply the absence of good in these people. As explained by the bubble-o-gram, these people controlled their immediate environment based on their own will and did evil and killed or hated etc., but God did not force or will these people to that end. God knew they would do it, but that was their decision and their own downfall as they carved out their destiny and fate to be evil. God has given us this life as a trial. We have control of what we are going to do, it is up to us to choose our ultimate fate, whether good or bad. ............................ Sir Charles? God knew he was to be injured on December 8th. God did not will the injury as a punishment. God simply steered Barkley's bubble(or round mound) away from professional sports. God knows best, and he could have been doing this for some time now, only to come to a climax last night. The possiblities of course are infinite. But now it is up to Barkley to do what he wills. ....................... I don't want to offend anybody, nor do I wish to force my opinion on to others. This is simply my opinion and rationalization of this subject, just thought I'd share. I hope this is enlightening to a few. ------------------ -Peace to the Believers [This message has been edited by RocketScientist (edited December 09, 1999).]
RocketScientist gives a very Augustine-esque defense. I think the best possible, but still lacking. I will not debate this any longer, I just wanted to suggest something to Will. You entitled the thread, "Everything does not happen for a reason." This is an interesting claim, but suprisingly not always inconsistent with determinism. If you are interested in a non-religious, in fact some may call it atheistic, account of determinism without reason, see Spinoza's Ethics, especially part I. If you are interested in this sort of thing you will find it a most perplexing read. [This message has been edited by Plato (edited December 09, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Plato (edited December 09, 1999).]
Just wanted to lighten the mood and say CLUTCHCITY.NET RULES! What an intriguing topic in light of the fate of Barkley and the Rockets. I love coming here.
Plato: please do not do yourself the disservice of believing you know what i am. trust me, you don't. However, some folks need religion to help them keep their sanity. It gives them something to live for. Some of us reject that because it requires, well, a leap of faith. Those that insist on consistency and reason throughout their lives understand that faith is an excuse for baseless or at least indefensable beliefs. "something to live for" is living for happiness. what you perceive as your happiness, i say go for it. not based upon what the Bible or Torah or Quran says, but on what is inside of you. the leap of faith comes, IMO, when you understand that life is not as simple as do this, and that happens. the leap of faith is when you follow what is in your heart, and not what is in societies eyes. in fact, plato, you and i may be more alike than you think. and by the way, my beliefs are far from indefensible. i promise you that. and, in another place and another time, i'd be glad to tell you what they are. like i said, i really don't think you and i are that far apart. Rocketman 95: verse, how does that explain those people who have led a righteous life, been upstanding citizens, and then die at a young age at the hands of a criminal or a drunk driver? Try explaining to them that God's plan is for everyone to succeed, and if they don't, it's their fault. is it not possible that their meaning for life had already been accomplished? even for a child? as for those who "died before their time", i.e. an infant, i don't know. it's quite possible that their purpose was to die, and the effects it had on others. or it's possible that their purpose is truly in a place other than here. like i said, i don't know. but i do know that all things happen for a reason, which we usually find later. i'm not gifted or wise enough to know all of the answers though. however, like Plato, i do think about them without regard to what society believes they should be.
by the way, Plato, it is interesting how you feel the need to label everyone instantaneously. be careful, you may label the wrong person the wrong thing, and miss out on something.
This is not the place for this discussion. But if you will defend YOUR beliefs...or at least STATE THEM, instead of just bashing 91% of the world's population who happens to believe in a higher form of life other than your arrogant self, then I would be happy to discuss these and other topics with you in the BBS Hangout. God exists and created the universe from nothing - Leap of Faith. The universe was created randomly by itself from nothing - Leap of Science. Which leap is greater? ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
RocketScientist: Please start the thread there. After reading the last couple of posts, I'd like to continue discussing this.
correction verse, i was simply referencing a similar defense for those interested. those who read and agree (or even disagree) with your religious defense may also find st. augustine interesting. i do not label people. i apologize to you and anyone else who feels labelled. whereas i disagree with you, i do find that debate always brings better understanding. i believe in dialectic, in the spirit of my moniker . think on. whether apparant or real, the thought experiment is the beginning of freedom.
Thread continued... http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000449.html ------------------ -Peace to the Believers
Umm... random events do occur, you know. I mean... it wasn't God's will that my leg twitched, and that I knocked over my coffee today. Rather, I didn't have enough potassium in my system to exert full muscular control. It wasn't God's will that six million Jews died in the Holocaust. I doubt it was God's will that Stalin engineered a famine that killed 20 million. I even doubt it was God's will that Monica gave Bill Clinton a blow job. I believe in God... but I also believe that he allows us free will, and that we're not puppets. I'm not going to denigrate the human race enough to believe that God treats us like hampsters. Everybody who dissents: go read some Hegel and Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor.
I've never heard the holocaust described as a random event before... I can't say the same thing about Monica giving Bill a **** ***, however.
By random, I mean it was not divinely instigated. I'm a political science major... most scholars agree that the Hitler was an historically dynamic anomaly- it wouldn't have taken place w/o him... and therefore was sort of a fluke. In contrast, events like WWI were preeminent, and would have happened no matter which indivdiuals were in power.
