God did not send Charles Barkley a message to end his career tonight in Philadelphia. God does not cause injuries. God does not cause one team to beat another. God does not cause one team to play better than another. Every game the Rockets won, they earned. Every game they lost, they could have won. God did not dictate otherwise. Every championship the Rockets won, they earned. God did not decree that Patrick Ewing should never win a championship. Hakeem Olajuwon simply outplayed him. Every playoff series the Rockets lost, they could have won. Hakeem said after the '97 WCF that a championship for the Rockets that year wasn't meant to be. Wasn't meant to be? That was Charles Barkley's best remaining shot at a championship. There is no such thing as what was meant to be. The Nazis could have won World War II. The Soviets could have conquered Europe. The Rockets could have lost any one of their win-or-go-home games in the 1995 playoffs. They won every single one of those games -- not because God willed it, not because God preferred the Rockets to the Jazz or the Suns or the Spurs or the Magic -- but because the Rockets took it upon themselves to outplay every one of those teams. God did not will that Charles Barkley should never win a championship. And God did not will that Barkley's career should end tonight. It is Barkley's decision whether to retire, just as it has always been his decision, not God's, to play hard every night. If Barkley decides to retire, I will respect that choice, just as I have respected his choice to leave it all on the court every night. He earned everything he accomplished -- and by the same token, he could have accomplished everything he didn't. Barkley went down for the last time doing what his detractors accused him of never doing -- getting back on defense and making the extra effort to stop a basket. That's what I'll choose to remember about him, if he's gone. It's a fitting conclusion, but he wasn't meant to go out that way. God wasn't trying to prove a point about Charles Barkley. Barkley proved that point all by himself.
I agree. It was just a freak accident. Incredibly tough pill to swallow. At least Chuck gets the satisfaction of ending his career where he started it. That makes him feel better about it. We miss you already, Chuck. What a sad day for Houston and the NBA! SaluteCharles = bballfanatic
Will I would be careful with what you say about God's will. Everything that happens happens through God. We as human's do not have the ability to know what his will is. So don't act like you know something that you don't. [This message has been edited by WHAM! (edited December 08, 1999).]
WHAM- by that token does God make the Mansons and Dahmers of the world go out and kill? Does he make people into biggots, racsists, and hypocrites? It's all up to us what we do with our lives, even if God does know what will happen.
I'm just going to have to disagree on this one. Sh*t happens for a reason...even if we're too shortsighted to see it. There's no such thing as coincidences. Even in chaos, there is order. Good luck Chuck.....may you find happiness in whatever path you choose to follow from this point on.
Fine post. It is arrogant of these guys to think that GOD picks favorites to decide who will win games (last year Cunningham said his faith was the reason for their winning - guess that is why they lost to a lesser team and he is now on the bench). No one deserves to have a major injury just for playing a game and just for a poetic ending (start-end in Philly). Will, you have started something that requires way to much time to adequately agree with you...
WHAM -- You say, "We as human's do not have the ability to know what his will is. So don't act like you know something that you don't." But you also say, "Everything that happens happens through God and because of God." So here's the situation. You're saying you know what God's will is, just as I am. I'm saying it wasn't God's will to injure Charles Barkley tonight. You're saying everything that happens (and obviously that includes Barkley's injury) happens because of God -- in short, that it WAS God's will to injure Charles Barkley tonight. So you have the same problem I do -- "acting like you know something" about God's will. But because of your determinism, you also have a problem I don't have. You have to explain why God would cause an injury. Good luck.
Antisonic Read the third line of my post again. If you want an answer to your questions, ask the one mentioned in the second line of my post.
Now I'm not one to be very religious, but man, I'm not so sure that it's the wisest thing to deny God has anything at all to do with what happens in life. There are arguments for both sides, but be careful when you think events of life is TOTALLY either in your control or lucky. ------------------ Oldest Junior Member on the BBS (since June '98)
You know what is weird. I always think of something and say things before games and something happens after games. Like before the rockets and suns game. I was saying . Francis will injure Jason Kidds ankle tonight. Francis is too quick for him. Francis gets injured instead. Then yesterday I thought about something. I was thinking of how the rockets never really had to worry about the Power Forward spot and charles always can take over other weak teams power forward. Now we dont have a pwer forward anymore. Barkley ends his career.
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point. I think Charles was saying that God meant for this to happen in Philadelphia. He wasn't questioning the injury as God's will- he gave the reason for that being that his body is worn down and something like this was bound to happen. The irony to Charles and a lot of people is that it happened in Philadelphia and not in Seatle or Denver. Whether you or I think God played a role in this is irrelevant. What is important is that Charles thinks he did.
I'm not trying to make a point about God. I'm trying to make a point about Charles Barkley. Barkley epitomized the principle that you should play every night as though the game depends on you. Because in fact, it does. If you want to say after the fact that God willed the game to turn out that way, or that He willed your injury to happen in Philadelphia, I think you're insulting God (by saying that he willed harm or defeat to innocent people). But since the game is already over, or the injury has already happened, it makes no practical difference. If, however, Barkley makes a decision about what he will do in the future -- in this case, retire -- based on his illusion that what happened to him tonight was God's will, then he's abdicating the free will and responsibility that have always defined his performance on the court. I don't want him to retire, and I don't think he has to. But if he makes that choice, I'll respect it. To me, Charles Barkley represents what a person can do when he puts his mind to it. He's 6'4" and weighs too much, but he has willed his teams to more victories than Shaquille O'Neal will ever win with all his talent. I believe in free will. I think it's what God gave us. And I think it's the message of Charles Barkley's career. He is exactly what he claimed not to be: a role model.
Last reply - I promise. Good points - Barkley always represented pure determination. He willed his teams to over achieve. I am not really a religious guy - my point is that I think Charles feels that he got a message tonight. Unfortunately - he has at least for now taken this to heart that there was a reason that this happened in Philly. He may wake up tomorrow and realize that he was wrong. Anyway, as you said, what is done is done. Now we move on.
The Argument of Moral Responsibility states that if determinism were true, no person would be able to change his actions, therefore no one could ever be held morally responsible for his own actions. Barkley might benefit more from determinism, as would a lot of professional athletes. PS: That's a joke.
I am not the religious type, but I am smart enough to know that God rules over all. I don't know if what is meant to be is meant to be, but I know that He rules over all. No matter what. I don't try to explain it. I don't know if God is into sports pushing certain athletes one way and athletes the other giving them that extra "something" to win titles. To me, He da man. And thats it. I don't try to explain it. But, I am absolutely sure of one thing. That is, God gives people certain talents. Then, the rest is up to you. You can either use it. Or you can abuse it. Or you can just ignore it. Not only did Barkley come to this world with that talent bestowed upon him, not only did he use that talent to the fullest, not only did he work hard to extend that talent and physical ability well past his prime, but he at his height showed that every individual has to develop something that each and everyone of us have in us...HEART. ------------------ Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball.
Will, I love Charles and it is a poetic moment in sports. Star returns home in farewell tour and ends his career prematurely. I think Chuck can still play, but this is a perfect ending for him. I don't think he will return. The Rockets will move on. We have an opportunity to add another star player in next years draft. Think of the Spurs before Duncan. It will be a tough season.
Will, As tempting as the religious debate is, this really isn't the place. However, WHAM never claimed to know the will of God, and goes so far as to say We as human's do not have the ability to know what his will is. Just because he goes on to say Everything that happens happens through God and because of God, that is not a claim to know God's will, only a belief in the Word of God which says as much. The real contradiction is to declare a belief in deity but not in His word. I'm not a theologist, but I would lay odds that most religions believe their creator has a divine plan. And I don't think Barkley was getting back on defense, but was slow in getting up the court.
Ahh, what fun psuedo-philosophical babble. I will just reference a few readings that you may want to review to test the determinist v. free will debate: St. Augustine - On Free Choice of the Will Spinoza - Ethics Part I Leibniz - Monadology Descartes - Meditations on First Philosophy My own (Plato's) Republic - Books VI-VII George Berkeley - Principles of Human Knowledge Bertrand Russell - The Limits of Philosophical Knowledge Just to name a few. This debate goes much deeper than, "I think there's gotta be a reason" or "That's crap, I make my own free decisions." Let's stick to B-ball on this site fellas... We'll miss ya Charles, you are truly a GREAT one.
