1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[ESPN] Jose Altuve no surprise second at second

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by bobrek, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 1999
    Messages:
    36,288
    Likes Received:
    26,639
  2. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,936
    Likes Received:
    14,006
    Not a big fan of the article. Given enough sample size, players regress to the mean. If a player isn't regressing to the mean, the mean people expect a player to regress to is not the actual mean.

    It is highly likely that Altuve's production last year is above the mean of his true talent level. Projections will have a tough time with Altuve because he is an outlier making it difficult to estimate what his true mean is. I really hope Altuve has taken a big step forward and is the man going forward.
     
  3. donkeypunch

    donkeypunch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    19,453
    Likes Received:
    21,969
    For reducing clicks to espn.

     
  4. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    19,149
    Likes Received:
    27,932

    Joe Mauer never has, neither did Ichiro, Rod Carew, Tony Gwynn, Miguel Cabrera, Derek Jeter. There are quite a few players who maintained a BABIP up around .350 during their primes.

    The BABIP stat is a good blanket number, because it does apply to most people. But history has proven that hitting isn't simply luck, some guys have a superior ability to hit the ball into good locations. Just because there are outliers, the mean doesn't necessarily change.

    Is Altuve that level of hitter, I don't know. But there is no guarantee that he has to significantly regress.
     
  5. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,601
    Likes Received:
    330
    The article completely supports your opinion and is totally complimentary of LIttle Tuna, so what's not to like?
     
  6. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,936
    Likes Received:
    14,006
    BABIP is a skill which means each player has a BABIP mean. Given enough at bats, Altuve will regress to his BABIP mean whether it is .330, .350, or even if it regresses up to .380. The only way Altuve doesn't regress to the mean is if his BABIP has already stabilized to his mean.

    When people don't regress to the mean, they are actually regressing to the mean.....just that the mean was estimated incorrectly by a projection. As more data comes in, the estimation of the mean should get more accurate.

    There is no guarantee Altuve has to regress significantly. There is a guarantee that he will regress towards his true talent level given enough of a sample size. Whether that regression is negative or positive, I don't know. I am guessing it will be negative. By how much, it is tough to say as Altuve is in the outlier area.
     
  7. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,936
    Likes Received:
    14,006
    Its use of the word mean. Everyone regresses to the mean. Just because Tony Gwynn batted .347 doesn't mean he didn't regress to the mean. His mean was just awesome.

    We'll see what Altuve's mean is in the future. Right now we are only guessing. If we guess wrong, it means his mean is more awesome than we thought and not that he outperformed the mean.

    League mean and historical context can be used by projections to estimate mean for a particular player. Usually, estimated mean and mean can be used interchangeably because usually they are close. When they aren't close, estimated mean can't be used to show a player outperformed his mean.
     
  8. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,601
    Likes Received:
    330
    I agree, and so does the article.
     
  9. baubo

    baubo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,836
    Likes Received:
    429
    The only worry I have of Altuve is that his value is so intricately tied to his speed. His high BABIP is tied to his ability to beat out ground balls. His steals, obviously, also tied to his speed. He has some power but not enough to scare pitchers. His defense, at least if you go by metrics, is terrible. I don't worry about regression so much as I hope he can stay healthy.
     
  10. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    85,590
    Likes Received:
    83,938
    If the kid "regresses" to a .310ish hitter that gets on base, hits a few doubles, steals a few bases, plays tolerable defense, and continues to have a financially sound contract.....then he's a valuable player on a team. Who gives a **** what his WOPR is?
     
  11. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,936
    Likes Received:
    14,006
    read article again.
     
  12. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,601
    Likes Received:
    330
    Yep, still agrees with your take. It even used your Tony Gwynn comparison to point out that good hitters don't have to regress to the "mean".

    Maybe I'm misinterpreting your angst, but this article is completely complimentary of Altuve, when there seems to be so much media hate for the Stros these days, that I find it hard to criticize.

     
  13. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    I have to say, I read the article the same way you are and was also wondering what is the problem.
     
  14. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    Fluff piece but good to see him getting press. Sure wish he'd learn to walk a bit more.
     
  15. The Beard

    The Beard Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,429
    Likes Received:
    5,687
    Some people just hate the media so much they will see evil in even a complimentary article
     
  16. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 1999
    Messages:
    36,288
    Likes Received:
    26,639
    Pretty sure Matthew Broderick cares about WOPR.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    73,540
    Likes Received:
    19,801
    Favorite part was in the comments section where fans of other teams were defending him. Nice :) Been a little while since we've seen that for an Astro.
     
  18. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,106
    Likes Received:
    14,329
    If Altuve played in Boston or NY, we wouldn't stop hearing how awesome last season was... and it probably gets him a cover of one of the major magazines for their season preview.
     
  19. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2000
    Messages:
    15,007
    Likes Received:
    2,626
    Shoot, in New York he'd get his own reality show.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,601
    Likes Received:
    330
    Thanks. I thought I had lost my sliver of reading comprehension for a minute there.

    I've read the article several times and can't even find one backhanded compliment snuck in there. Odd.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now