ESPN “Experts” Rank the Top 74 Players in NBA History

i mean barkley and robinson are ahead of thomas, why would harden not be? the arguments would be similar.

and anyway this isn't about harden, it's about thomas. i could overlook his numbers if they just weren't quite up to par with the other greats, but they are miles away from everybody else. we're talking regular season 18 PER, 51.6 TS% (in the highest efficiency era), and 0.109 WS/48. those are only slightly above the average for those stats, much less in the all-time great realm. and that's with retiring at 32 and avoiding the extended decline and drag on numbers most players get. his efficiency is kind of shocking.

in the 9 years he made the playoffs, his regular season numbers were 19/52%/0.127 and playoff numbers were 20/52%/0.143. i'll give him credit for the actual rise in numbers (very rare), but it's from such a low level. it's not as if these stats act against a guy who scores on the most on his team. they might slightly underrate assist guys but magic certainly has a very high PER compared to thomas and doubles him up in WS/48. and playing with great defensive teammates is a huge boost to WS/48. TS% in the low 50's in the 80's is very difficult to square as anything but bad. iverson basically has the same TS% in a much lower league-wide TS% era and everyone gets on iverson for being inefficient. thomas has largely escaped this criticism.

it's not that thomas is without some really great play or wasn't an unlucky ankle injury from maybe winning 3 titles, but he was far from the dominance of most of the guys ahead of him. i think being in the 30's is already giving a him a lot of "winning" credit against a stat line that does not inspire.

 

the point is ,

the 6' 5" SF out-rebounded every C/PF of his era, not named Russell nor Chamberlain.​

no, you expect the C/PF to carry the heavier load.

yet, the 6' 5" SF out-rebounded every C/PF of his era, including some who'd be HoFers, not named Russell nor Chamberlain.​

he made the all-star team 11 of his 14 years; in his all-star years, he avg close to 29 ppg, 15 rpg




let's compare these 2 Hall of Famers, both were named to the top 50 NBAers of all time in the early 2000s; both never won a ring.

karl malone — 25.0 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 3.6 APG,---was ranked 17 by espn.
his team reached the finals twice.​

Elgin Baylor ----- 27.4 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 4.3 APG --- was ranked 22 by espn.
his team reached the finals 5 or 6 times. baylor held the record for scoring the most points in a playoff game, 61, until MJ broke that record

espn needs to switch the rankings for these 2

​

 

They shouldn't be ahead of him either. The purpose of the game is to win, not accumulate stats. Zeke led teams to 3 Finals and two titles. Give me that. You can have Barkley, Robinson, Harden and their stats. I want to win.

 

Paul is a better player, but Westbrook is younger.

2020 Paul better
2021 tie
2022 WB better

no need to trade picks, correct?

why waste draft picks?

 

You have to apply context when deciding how much credit to give individual players for championships though. How good was their supporting cast? Could player x have achieved the same result as player y had they been in their situation? etc. I mean Chauncey Billups technically led the Pistons to a title and 2 finals, should he be ranked above Drob and Barkley? I get that Billups status as the best player on the team was more in question than Zeke's, but the point is that both of their championships were won more by committee than by one player's dominance.

 

Well stated. I get tired of fans and media selectively choosing when to play the "it's a team sport" card and when to give a single player sole credit to further narratives.

Context matters.

 

Clickbait is clickbait.

 

Not a Zeke fan, but saw him play twice during the regular season with good Pistons teams. The first game, I was not impressed as he seemed to be on the periphery and passing up opportunities. However, about midway through the 4th, the game was still close and the Mavs were feeling like they had a chance. You could see Thomas pick up on this and he just flat took over the last part of the game. He drove, he made steals, he made shots, he set his teammates up and the Pistons won going away. It was pretty cool to watch.

The second game was against the Bullets and the same thing happened. When he turned it on, he was obviously the best player on the court and one of the most dynamic I've seen.

And also, Dream should be well within the Top 10. How is Duncan there when he can't make free throws during clutch time in the Finals? Good thing he had Horry around.

 

You will struggle to name a star player that won without a great supporting cast. I have never heard anyone question Zeke's status as the main guy for Detroit, or as one of the top PG's and players in the game at that time (folks aren't saying he was robbed from being on the Dream Team just because). He is in no way comparable to Billups, who was arguably not even Detroit's best player or one of the clear best players in basketball.

Yes, he should be ranked ahead of Robinson and Barkley. We saw them fold come winning time multiple times. Barkley is still slobbing over Jordan 25 years later. We saw Dream take Robinson's soul. Etc. The goal is to win. Zeke was the clear driving force twice. His team wasn't anymore stacked than any other squad that won when he played.

 

Dream carried those mediocre Rox teams across the finish line to grab the ring

hell no, not that chicken bleep weasel, back-stabber

 

How many of those superstars average 18 and 8 on 41% shooting in the playoffs and their team still wins the championship? Because that's what Zeke did; If Robinson or Barkley have that kind of production, their teams don't even get out of the first round, much less win a championship. Zeke had multiple HOFers to bail him out when he played poorly, Drob had Sean Elliott and Vinny del Negro.

 

The three years Detroit went to the Finals Zeke avg:

Playoffs
22, 5, 9, 3 on 43%
18, 4, 8, 2 on 41%
21, 5, 8, 2 on 46%

He led the team in scoring and assists each playoff run, in a time where your PG being your top scorer was frowned upon. He also played defense. If Barkley did that he likely wins a ring. If you think his teammates were bailing him out you must have missed the playoffs from 88-90.

 

Yeah, Duncan needed Horry to win championships hahahaha
Almost everybody will pick Duncan over Dream, thats a reallity. I think Dream was more talented and way more athletic, but Duncan was smarter and made his teams better.
Peak value is not the only important thing, if not Shaq would be the GOAT.
Dream should be top 10, but i think 10 is about right, especially over Kobe.

Fully agree on this. Give me winners, instead of empty calories stat makers like Westbrook. You dont need to score 35 a game in the playoffs to win.
Coming big at important moments, getting clutch baskets or stops... thats what matters, and if you watch the games instead of just reading stats, people will realize who are the really important players and who are just stats sheet stuffers.

 

Pierce's opinion on this subject is as shitty as Game 3 of the 2008 Finals.

 

There is not a strong argument for Kobe being better at his peak or career. But I won't knock Pierce for the rest of them. I would also listen to arguments for Bird and Wilt. Actually, Wilt and LeBron are a lot alike.

 

i think Lebron is clearly a top5, and im not even a big fan, and he is definitely better than Kobe.
To me Kobe is not top 10, but close , in the top 12.
Hes career was great, but only has 1 mvp and 2 finals mvp in 5 championships. He was clearly worst than Shaq on those first 3 championships.

 

You dropped the mic.

I think Lebron's D is inconsistent, he chase blocks a lot but is he really that consistent?

 

in the regular season when it doesn't matter? sure, it hasn't been consistent since probably the first cleveland return year. you can't expect a guy who has played the enormity of minutes that lebron has, while making 8 consecutive finals runs, to D up in the regular season in his 30's. it's probably impossible and it's definitely pointless. underrated in jordan's retirement is that jordan's legs had 2 less years of wear and tear when Last Dance time rolled around. and he still looked worn out by the end.

in the playoffs? yeah, lebron is consistent. paul pierce is considered a great playoff player and lebron has consistently held him to bad numbers. the guy may not be elite at guarding 1's and 4's but he gets the job done and certainly puts in the effort, rebounds like crazy (i think he literally had the first 30/10 playoff run since shaq in 2015), and was crazy good in the 2016 finals (i.e. year 13) at getting steals, getting blocks, and just being a general rim protector on drives. 2018 might be the first year you could argue he wasn't playing much D and that's because he was shouldering more of an offensive load than arguably any person in a finals run ever.

 

It's not like we are discussing a Top 10 or Top 20 player, dude is Top 3 or even in GOAT conversation, every weakness angle is exploited.

Also he just shoots 34% from 3 careerwise, that is not good enough for a Small Forward in the newer Era.

He didn't attempt that many in the past before he joined the Lakers.

He also trails someone like Westbrook in rebounding or is on par with him, a much shorter guy.

For someone who plays the 4 and the 5 in limited minutes.

It tells you that he still has weaknesses and is not aggressive all the time.

A good reason he probably won't be the Goat when it's said and done.

I mean c'mon, Hakeem has fewer weaknesses as he dominates in more categories and is ranked around 10th or 12th Alltime.....popularity strikes again smh