(Dirty Sports) LeBron would dominate the 80's and 90's

you can make a case for that.

but rings alone doesn't do it otherwise robert horry would be the goat. rings don't mean much without the finals mvp (meaning you are the reason you won the ring). and of course the goat would need regular season mvps too. now there was no finals mvp in russell's day. he probably would've had about 8 or 9 since maybe cousey or havlicek would've got one or two.

some make the argument that the league's talent was stacked unevenly with some teams not having any franchise level players while the celtics had about 7 hall of famers? that coupled with the smaller number if teams, number games in the season and playoffs, and free agency rules were so different than now, really makes the case for a split between the early nba and the modern era. i think that's fair enough when trying to compare russel, wilt, oscar, west, etc... to the careers of more modern era players.

if you subscribe to that idea... and you may not since most people like to believe their generation had the best of everything... best ball player ever is lebron, your music is 100x better than your kids music, etc... but if you wanted to split the 2 eras, it would be when the ABA and NBA merged. and if that's the case, russell is the GOAT of early nba, and jordan is the goat of modern nba. lebron is the most talented ever. chamberlain is probably the most talented of the early era... although its close with oscar, west, and even the early parts of kareem and dr.j's careers.

 

No. Saying you do doesn't make it true. You have said Wilt would be Ian Mahimi today. Bird would be a better Joe Ingles and Worthy would be nothing more than Ariza. You have called their peers "**** compeition." Hmm. Doesn't sound like respect at all.

Oh ok. Scottie Pippen was instantly a HOF player right? He didn't take 3-4 years to develop? He was just instantly a top 40 player the moment he joined the Bulls. Same with Phil Jackson. He was a HOF GOAT Coach sitting on the bench as an assistant coach. Gotcha.

Can you please tell me where he said he's retiring because he "can't handle the pressure!"

 

The point is you can't use the rings argument when arguing jordan vs lebron. Its a dumb argument because other players have more rings. It then becomes a game of moving the needle depending on what Jordan is better at, when compared to Russell you mention the competition when compared to Lebron you mention the rings. 30 yrs from now when a new GOAT comes along with 7 rings these people are gonna say Jordan is GOAT because he had a shinier head. Jordan had a great team, he had 3 stars with Pippen, Rodman and him compared to other teams with just 1 star like Hakeem or Ewing in Nyc. Pippen was also the undisputed 2nd best wing in the NBA so its not like he was dragging weak teams to rings every year.

The comparison has to be consistent through just one lens instead of shifting on what would result in the answer being Jordan.

 

You’ve seen the remake
When you are in the same position at me when the nba has no touch rules and four point line you can tell the little JMAD they are wrong

 

I agree with everything here other than Larry Bird, he'd translate. Way too smart of a player & shooter to not translate. Probably wouldn't be a star, but would definitely be a very good role player. And that's just if you transitioned him from then to now. If he grew up with today's coaching & dieting he would've definitely made the NBA & been atleast Gordon Hayward level with Ingles vision.

There's a few transcendent stars in NBA history. I think Bird would be one of them.

 

Sorry, off by like an inch and a half. Bill Russell would get murdered in the league today if you picked him up from his era and dropped him in the current one. I stand by my claim that Capela would make him look like a child on the boards/in the paint in general (not size wise but skill level)

But if he grew up with today's coaching and dieting, that's a different story.

 

How convenient.

Arguing for Bill Russell's rings in an 8 team league surround by HOF teammates while only scoring 15ppg on 44% is not the same as saying rings don't matter so MJ can't be GOAT. Go ahead and now say there's more than scoring. It seems it's only Jordan haters who want to start switching the goal post.

Michael Jordan played in the modern era. To pretend like the difference from LeBron James to Michael Jordan is the same as from Michael Jordan to Bill Russells era is asinine.

Jordan at 38,39 and 40 years old was still balling against young and prime players that were LeBrons greatest competition. You guys are all so ridiculous.

Nah. We just say LeBron's weak ass road to the Finals only to lose just isn't impressive and take that away and all you have are career totals. Making excuses for him jumping from team to team to win doesn't impress. If someone came along and convincingly was the best player on 7 rings in the new era without tons of HOF help. Sure, he can jump up over MJ. LeBron joining forces with PG13 and Kawhi in LA or Harden and CP3 in Houston and winning 7 total isn't going to make him GOAT. He's a mercenary for hire.

Jordan did have a great team in the 90s. Jordan also only had Scottie Pippen as his 1 and only All Star teammate of his career. Grant on the first 3 peat never made an All Star. He and somehow BJ Armstrong made it in when MJ was retired the first year. Rodman was only on the 2nd 3 peat and was 34 going on 35. He hadn't been an All Star in 2 or 3 years iirc.

Hakeem had Clyde Drexler at the time. Then Barkley.
Karl Malone had Stockton and Hornacek.
Payton and Kemp had Detlef and Hawkins and good role players.
Clyde had Porter and like 4 other all-stars..off the top of my head, i think Buck Williams, Duckworth, Cliff Robinson, Danny Ainge were all stars at one point or another. Point is they were deep.
Duncan and Robinson were there together MJ's last ring when MJ virtually carried the Bulls by himself with Pippen nursing a bad back and was awful when he returned in the playoffs.
Shaq and Penny and good role players.
Shaq and Kobe were there the last 2 title runs. They also had Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel.
Ewing had Oak and Mason and Starks, Mark Jackson and other good role players and later Spree and Larry Johnson .
Reggie had Mark Jackson and Rik Smits and the Davis's. A deep team of 1 star + tons of really high level role players can beat a team with only 2 clear cut stars and they and the Knicks would push the Bulls to 7 due to that.
Mullin and Hardaway and Richmond were together.
Zo had Larry Johnson and Gill and later Hardaway, and Glen Rice and Mashburn and Steve Smith.
Kidd had Mashburn and Jackson.
Glenn Robinson had Vin Baker and Ray Allen.
Allen Iverson had Derrick Coleman and Stackhouse.
Grant Hill had Alan Houston and Stackhouse and Dumars.
CWebb had Sprewell and Howard and Strickland and young Ben Wallace
KG had Marbury.
Dikembe had Abdul Rauf and McDyess and good role players.
Dikembe had Steve Smith and Mookie and Kevin Willis.
Mighty Mouse + Camby and T-Mac and Christie were there last chip.
Coleman had Petrovic and Kenny Anderson
Nique had Mark Jackson and still 20ppg Ron Harper when he went to the Clippers.
Kidd, Penny, Nash, KJ were all on the same team at one point.
Shareef had Big Country
Robinson had Elliot and Rodman and Strickland
Stoudamire, Rider, Sheed, Walt Williams, BGrant, Augmon, Kenny Anderson, even young JOneal in 98.


Anyone else? Top to bottom the league was pretty healthy 1-2 punch with veteran role players. Teams were deep. Just because you don't remember those former all stars and high level role players of the time compared to the easy to remember high level role players of today because they're fresh on your mind, doesn't mean they didn't exist. Half the league today is 19 year old rookies surrounded by gleague players tanking for the next pick.

I'll tell you what though. LeBron fans would be crying that he needs more help if he had Horace Grant as his 3rd best player averaging virtually identical numbers as Tristan Thompson. LeBron fans would be calling Scottie Pippen a bum and he needs more help if Pippen averaged 17ppg on 40% shooting and 27% from 3 for the entire 2nd 3 peat playoff run. LeBron fans would be begging for more help if Rodman averaged 5ppg on 41% and only 11rpg as the goat rebounder for the entire 2nd 3 peat and also missing games and getting suspended left and right. LeBron wins zero rings with those guys. "FACTS"

 

Well if lebron played during Russell’s era he would have to face racism and no modern medicine and nutrition

Don’t hate the old school
Because you wouldn’t exist if the human race was wiped out

 

All hypothetical, yes, but you can't refute that Bill does have a great mind for basketball, or atleast he used to. Athleticism/size alone would've made him a 4/5 star recruit out of highschool. After that who knows.

 

Gordon Hayward is not even as good as Detlef Schrempf. Joe Ingles is a poor mans Toni Kukoc at best.

 

You don't even know who that is do you?
Better PER, TS%, OWS, DWS, WS/48, almost as good AST%
Peaked at 19, 9.5 and 6apg
Took less shots, lower USG, and was hitting 42% from 3 when he started to shoot them.

He's bigger(6'10), he's longer, and he can handle and play point forward or get on the block and post up or rebound. You have no clue how deadly he would be in todays NBA. You've spent all night shouting insults at me but you are just a clueless child, so indeed i am an idiot for still wasting my time with you on this boring Friday night.

Of all the time we wasted..were just nobodies watching from home...there are more people who are part of the game including current and past legendary players and coaches who side with me on MJ, and the level of difficulty vs today. I think you got Isiah on your side. He's flip flopped from Kareem and LeBron as his GOATs and trashes his own era's level of athleticism. So there's him at least. You know, the guy who walked off the court before the game was even over after he got swept by MJ. The same sore loser you LeBronies would need on your side to defend your boy and your views.

 

People talk abound hand checking and fail to mention the illegal defense rule. Lebron and Harden would get to ISO every play. No one in the world could stop these guys one on one.

 

oh boy, sounds like you didn't understand or didn't read the post you're replying to.

my argument was consistent, if you read it. you actually repeated my argument back to me just now.

i said rings aren't enough or robert horry would be the goat. i look at rings, finals MVPs (they show you are the reason you won the ring), and MVPs. jordan's 6-6-5 > lebron's 3-3-4.

again, looking at talent level doesn't tell the story. players keep getting better. sure, lebron would be even more of a monster if he played in the 90s.tj mcconnell would've been bob cousey if he played in the 50s, but we're not throwing his name into the goat convo. you have to look at how these great players dominated THEIR OWN ERA. looking at rings, FMVPs, and MVPs tells that story and controls for an ever increasing talent level.

the only reason i mentioned talent (if you read my post before replying to it) is that using awards as a metric is unfair to those who played before some of these awards existed, like russell. i brought up the imbalance of talent in the league back then (the celtics had most of the good players, while other teams barely existed) as another reason we can't look at rings alone because then most of the 50's celtics would be the goat. where the talent in the league was stacked back then makes those rings less accurate of a measuring tool. now, its not fair to discard those accomplishments either... but since the league has changed so much from russell's time, i think its fair to draw a line between early nba and the modern era and say russell was the goat of early nba, and jordan of the modern era.

if it makes these lebron lovers (and btw 10 years ago it was kobe lovers making the same arguments against jordan) feel better, sure we can call him the most talented player of all time. but he hasn't dominated his era more than jordan did his. that's what made jordan the goat. as much as you think lebron is the best, imagine if he beat up the league for 3 more rings and another MVP... and oh yeah a DPOY award.

 

It’s like saying some kid appreciates World War Two cause they played call of duty