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Defund the Cops?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by B@ffled, Jun 4, 2020.

  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    wow that is harrowing.
     
  2. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    "Want to Abolish the Police? Consider Becoming an Officer Instead":

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


    Want to Abolish the Police? Consider Becoming an Officer Instead
    If more people in law enforcement cared about the things progressives support, we’d all benefit.

    By Neil Gross
    Dr. Gross is a sociologist.
    July 13, 2020

    For the past few years, I’ve taught a seminar on the sociology of the police at Colby College in Maine. My students, mostly progressive, ask me whether there’s anything they can do to help solve some of the serious problems that exist in policing, such as racial inequities in the use of force, the overpolicing of minority neighborhoods and rogue officers who lie to justify arrests. Today, young people all over the country are asking the same question.

    Here’s the answer I give my students: Consider becoming a police officer.

    To many progressives, the suggestion to join the police force may be counterintuitive, even offensive. If your belief, based on what you’ve seen or read or experienced firsthand, is that policing is a racist, oppressive institution, why would you want to become a part of it? But if there were more police officers who cared about the things progressives support, like minimizing police violence, finding alternatives to incarceration and ensuring the right to peaceful protest, we’d all benefit.

    One of the main challenges when it comes to controlling police behavior is that by necessity, police officers are granted a great deal of discretion. They deal with so many widely varying and ambiguous situations that even the most intricately laid out rules can’t always specify how they should respond. Officers must follow applicable laws and policies, but they’re also expected to use their own good judgment, as informed by their training and experience. When that judgment isn’t good — when it’s clouded by racial animus or implicit bias, for example, or a greater sense of loyalty to one’s peers than to the cause of justice — problems arise.

    Yet the discretionary nature of policing also presents an opportunity: We could seed the occupation with people whose judgment reflects progressive values. (Years ago, I briefly served as a police officer, moved to do so by some of these concerns.)

    A new generation of progressive-leaning officers would hardly be immune to, say, racial bias. But these officers might be open to scrutinizing their behavior for evidence of bias. They might be more apt to call out institutional racism in their departments, insist on the employment of de-escalation tactics, be active bystanders who intervene if they see their fellow officers about to do something grievously wrong and use their discretion (within the limits of the law) to arrest primarily serious offenders, doing their part to reduce mass incarceration.

    Progressive-minded officers could be more inclined as detectives to consider exculpatory evidence and to abide by broad constitutional safeguards. Ascending to supervisory and leadership positions in their agencies, they could push for programs like restorative justice and community trust-building. They might press their unions not to be so recalcitrant when faced with demands for reform and accountability.
    more at the link

     
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  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  5. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    This is easier said than done. LEO Alex Keung is one of the LEO charged in the George Floyd murder. He joined the police with the idea that he was going to help reform the police and instead he's one of the faces of the problem. Blue culture is very strong and while a rookie LEO like Lane expressed reservations about what was going on with Floyd he, Keung and Thao all deferred to the senior officer.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/27/us/minneapolis-police-officer-kueng.html

    Floyd Had Pledged to Fix the Police
    Alex Kueng is one of four former officers accused of crimes in the killing of Mr. Floyd, which happened on his third shift. His decision to join the force had frayed friendships.

    MINNEAPOLIS — There were two black men at the scene of the police killing in Minneapolis last month that roiled the nation. One, George Floyd, was sprawled on the asphalt, with a white officer’s knee on his neck. The other black man, Alex Kueng, was a rookie police officer who held his back as Mr. Floyd struggled to breathe.

    Mr. Floyd, whose name has been painted on murals and scrawled on protest signs, has been laid to rest. Mr. Kueng, who faces charges of aiding and abetting in Mr. Floyd’s death, is out on bail, hounded at the supermarket by strangers and denounced by some family members.

    Long before Mr. Kueng was arrested, he had wrestled with the issue of police abuse of black people, joining the force in part to help protect people close to him from police aggression. He argued that diversity could force change in a Police Department long accused of racism.

    He had seen one sibling arrested and treated poorly, in his view, by sheriff’s deputies. He had found himself defending his decision to join the police force, saying he thought it was the best way to fix a broken system. He had clashed with friends over whether public demonstrations could actually make things better.

    “He said, ‘Don’t you think that that needs to be done from the inside?’” his mother, Joni Kueng, recalled him saying after he watched protesters block a highway years ago. “That’s part of the reason why he wanted to become a police officer — and a black police officer on top of it — is to bridge that gap in the community, change the narrative between the officers and the black community.”
    More at link
     
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  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I like calling it "reimagining" far more than "defund / disband" and a Community Assistance Liaison Team" sounds like a good idea to handle non-violent 911 calls.
     
  8. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Yeah.... defund was a terrible word to use. Kind of like "global warming"
     
  9. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    I want machines to police humans
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    "I’m a Black Police Officer. Here’s How to Change the System":

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    I’m a Black Police Officer. Here’s How to Change the System.
    Yes, defund the police. But then re-fund them, better.

    By David Hughes
    Major Hughes is a police officer.
    July 16, 2020

    NEWPORT NEWS, Va. — When I entered the police force in Virginia in 1987, I was one of the few Black officers in my department. On my first day on patrol, I was paired with an experienced white officer. As we prepared to hit the streets, he went over what he expected from me as a rookie. Then he pulled away from the curb and added, offhandedly: “Oh, if I call someone a ****** tonight, don’t get upset. It’s not directed at you, it’s directed at them.”

    I was taken aback, but I didn’t say anything. It was only my second week on the job. I was young. I remember thinking to myself, “I probably won’t have this job long.”

    That first night set the tone for what was to come. I kept my job and climbed the ranks over three decades in part because I learned how to navigate a racist system.

    I have personally heard some of my white colleagues mock Black people, make crude jokes or ridicule the way they speak. White officers crudely disparage high-ranking Black officers behind their backs. A sergeant once asked me if I could read or write. He also told me he didn’t think Blacks should be policemen — he said it was like “letting a fox guard the hen house.”

    When I was made detective, my transfer was mysteriously held up for months. I found out later that this was because I was being investigated for corruption. An officer had falsely accused me of selling drugs, despite my immaculate record in uniform. I wasn’t surprised.

    Having witnessed a racist police system from the inside, I understand why people are desperate for change. Some are calling for the dissolution of policing altogether. As a Black person, I understand. As a cop, I think that’s the wrong answer.

    I have seen firsthand how the right kind of policing can serve our communities and make people’s lives better. I have seen police officers use their own money to buy food and diapers for domestic violence victims, clean up a needle-filled vacant lot and build a playground on it, or take young people under their wing to give them a stable adult figure in their life.

    I have also, of course, seen how police can harm people’s lives. The answer to racist policing is not in taking away all the good that policing can do, but rather in changing what it means to police, and who is doing it.

    The first part of that change starts with hiring. The majority of police officers do not have four-year college degrees. They don’t start their career with a foundational education that will broaden their worldview, make them empathetic to other cultures or understand human psychology.

    Police academies must change, too. Police are taught that the enemy is “out there.” When they arrive at work with that mind-set, they don’t know who wants them in the community, and who wants to kill them. It’s no different than troops in Afghanistan or Iraq. We are patrolling the streets of our own cities as an occupying force.

    Our training also focuses on worst-case scenarios: how to arrest someone, how to fight, how to use a weapon. Instead, it should emphasize preventing escalation. Once you get to the point where you are having to fight, you’ve already lost. The question after a shooting by the police should not be “Was it legal?” but rather “Was it necessary?”

    The length of police academy varies, but here in Virginia, it’s about six months, then around three months with a training officer on the job. Nine months is not sufficient preparation to give you the authority to take someone’s life or deprive them of their liberty.

    The probationary period for police officers should also be increased to a minimum of three years. Currently, once an officer has completed his probationary period, it is almost impossible to fire him. Performance evaluations must focus on more than the number of arrests made or traffic tickets written. They should include the officer’s conviction rate, a thorough review of the types of arrests made and the number of complaints received.

    We must also address the racism of police departments from the inside. I don’t mean through “cultural diversity training.” When my department did that training, most showed up because they had to and cracked jokes through the whole thing. Instead, we should hire officers who reflect the communities they serve, by race and gender. About 15 percent of the police officers on my force are Black in a city that is about 43 percent Black. This imbalance is reflective of most police departments in America.

    Localities should also have the right to enact police residency requirements and give people a say in who polices their community. The officers involved in George Floyd’s death did not have a connection to the community they served. Don’t confuse being familiar with the people in the community with having a connection. All officers become acquainted with people on their beats — it’s a business relationship. An officer must be able to understand, empathize and feel they are part of the community.

    I’ve worked with hundreds of people as a trainer and patrol officer, investigator, administrator and assessor. When I hear calls to defund the police, I cringe. Not because I am a cop, but because the adage is true: You get what you pay for.

    Police salaries are low, making it hard to consistently attract the kind of folks we need on the force. This is not said to demean my fellow police officers. But when you make the job attractive to people who have a college degree and aspire for something more — to create social change, to understand human psychology, to make a difference in people’s lives for the better — you get the kind of police force any community would welcome.

    So yes, defund the police. But then re-fund them, better. Hire people with a college degree. Pay them more. Reform police academies to include education on psychology, cultural sensitivity, communication skills and de-escalation of conflict. Hold people to account.

    It’s not up to the officers to bring about change. We have to take drastic action to create that change for them. Those who want things to stay the same will have no choice but to go elsewhere, because the world has changed. Policing needs to catch up.

     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy QUEEN ANON

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  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Police unions are definitely a problem. That's why existing departments need to be broken, and a new force created with an emphasis of recruiting from the neighborhoods where cops will serve. More cameras and technology to monitor streets (double edged sword if you are a privacy advocate), and psychological screening. Police need a new culture. They should work with the local communities and understand their role in ensuring public safety.

    While the police shouldn't handle suicides or drug overdoses, they need to be there in presence to protect those who do respond. These things really need to be thought through very carefully.

    But I do think a big part of the problem is police culture.
     
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  15. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    ...kind of why the whole "...it's only a few bad apples..." line doesn't work as a defense mechanism for bad or corrupt police work, right?;)
     
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  16. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Minneapolis Charter Commission rejects a key change to the City Charter. This will make it harder to make major changes to MPD. Note, the Charter still can be changed by a unanimous vote of the City Council and Mayor. Right now the Mayor isn't in agreement with the council so that route is also difficult.
    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/...ission-rejects-minimum-funding-change-for-mpd

    Mpls. Charter Commission rejects minimum funding change for MPD
    Brandt Williams
    Minneapolis
    July 29, 2020 7:57 p.m.

    Members of the Minneapolis Charter Commission say now is not the right time for major changes to the city’s Police Department. The commission voted Wednesday to reject a measure that would have allowed voters to eliminate a minimum funding requirement for the Minneapolis Police Department which is currently in the city charter.

    The commission voted 8-6, with one member absent, to reject a proposal offered by Commissioner Alvaro Giraud-Isaacson. His proposal would have let voters decide if the charter should contain a staffing formula for the Police Department or not.

    Supporters said the nearly 60-year-old funding requirement for the Police Department shouldn't be in the charter in the first place. No other city department has such a provision.

    Commissioner Jan Sandberg said the amendment to eliminate the requirement is simple and straightforward.

    "I review charters from a few other cities,” she said. “There's nothing similar in any of those. It makes no sense to me in times of technological and social change to require minimum funding."

    Other supporters said eliminating the requirement would force the mayor and council to work together to decide what the proper size of the force should be.

    But opponents said now is not the time. Commissioner Jana Metge said given the current uptick in crime, there needs to be a more solid plan put forward to help people understand what will happen to them if the city defunds the Dolice Department.

    Commissioner Matt Perry added that the City Council had already signaled its plans during the most recent budget process.

    "They are intent on defunding the police,” he said. “So I think having the provision in the charter to have a minimum number of officers and employees in the department is a wise one at this time."

    Comments like that led several commissioners to pose that the body needed to have a larger discussion about what its role really is.

    “Some people seem to think our job is to put up guardrails to political mistakes made by the council or the mayor,” said Commissioner Greg Abbott. “I don't think that's our role here."

    The Charter Commission will vote next week to either accept, reject or amend a City Council-led ballot proposal to replace the department with another public safety agency.

    Commissioner Dan Cohen said if voters pass the council’s amendment in November, the city will suffer.

    "Crime would soar. Property values on our homes would fall as residents — both Black and white — would flee the city," said Cohen, who was a member of the Minneapolis City Council in the late 1960s.

    He added that he saw that happen in the wake of unrest which shook Minneapolis more than 50 years ago.

    “I don’t care to repeat the experience. And I don’t care to inflict the repetition of the experience on my fellow residents,” he said.

    The commission can block the council’s amendment if it decides to take more time. At this point, none of the commissioners said they would take that course.
     
  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    "Does Anyone Really Want to Defund the Police?":

    https://www.city-journal.org/defunding-police-not-the-answer

    excerpt:

    After the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, the Black Lives Matter movement led a nationwide call to “defund the police.” Most Americans assumed that this was just rhetoric, on the order of eliminating the military or the personal income tax, but a significant number of people—a vocal minority—mobilized around precisely this issue. Protesters always make demands, often setting the bar higher than can be realistically attained. It’s a common strategy for pursuing social change.

    This time, though, political leaders fell in line. Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti quickly acceded to the demands of the defunders. Not to be outdone, New York City mayor Bill de Blasio promised to reduce the NYPD budget by $1 billion. Most dramatically, the Minneapolis city council voted to abolish the city’s police force, though exactly how that would be implemented remains to be seen.

    None of the politicians who acted so abruptly consulted the public. According to a recent poll, most Americans do not want to defund the police. Two-thirds oppose the movement, with 60 percent specifically opposed to reducing police budgets. The same poll showed, however, that 57 percent of blacks support defunding the police. As a black man with many black friends, I find this a dubious statistic: my black friends, relatives, and neighbors are neither conservatives nor strong supporters of law enforcement, but none supports defunding the police. Violent crime is on the rise across the country, and it disproportionately affects black communities. Black people need police to keep their neighborhoods safe.

    One possible explanation for the disconnect: many people agree with Black Lives Matter and its demands—at least in theory—because “Black Lives Matter” can mean many things. As a principle, it’s relatively inarguable. As a social movement for police reform, it’s debatable, depending on your point of view. As a functioning organization, however—one that supports the dismantling of the nuclear family, capitalism, and most else that defines the American way of life—BLM is radical and destructive. This same eye-of-the-beholder dynamic applies to the phrase “defund the police.” Some people think that it means reducing spending on military-grade hardware and improving cadet training; others genuinely see it as a call to abolish armed law enforcement in U.S. cities.
    more at the link
     
  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  20. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Only white people in Portland and Seattle do
    The minorities don’t want to get their small businesses looted
     

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