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Coronavirus: Not longer UNITED States?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rocket River, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    No Longer UNITED States?

    https://www.vox.com/2020/3/28/21196...KyVEF8SiTgIZ7VOPv7JFc0ZGIVzmb3wMM6OX_WGCCP4hw

    The coronavirus pandemic is testing the very notion that the United States are united.

    By Ian Millhiser Mar 28, 2020, 8:30am EDT


    Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) signed an executive order on Thursday that would require travelers from some coronavirus hotspots to self-quarantine: It provides that “every person” who flies into Texas from “New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, or the City of New Orleans, or in any other state or city as may be proclaimed hereafter, shall be subject to mandatory self-quarantine for a period of 14 days from the time of entry into Texas or the duration of the person’s presence in Texas, whichever is shorter.”

    Other states have imposed similar orders. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) imposed an order on Tuesday that requires anyone flying from New York, New Jersey, or Connecticut to self-isolate for 14 days. Alaska and Hawaii also imposed self-quarantine orders on people traveling from other states.

    These orders implicate one of the fundamental premises of the union among the 50 states: the right of American citizens to travel among them freely.

    As the Supreme Court recognized more than 170 years ago, “we are one people with one common country. We are all citizens of the United States, and as members of the same community must have the right to pass and repass through every part of it without interruption, as freely as in our own states.” The right of all US citizens to travel freely among the states, the Court later explained in United States v. Guest (1966), “was conceived from the beginning to be a necessary concomitant of the stronger union the Constitution created.”

    If states can decide that some US citizens are not welcome within their borders, it may cease to be a union at all. This right to travel is implicit in the notion that citizens are Americans, and not simply Texans or New Yorkers.

    But should that principle hold during a pandemic? Does the Constitution forbid states from taking drastic actions to slow the spread of a potentially deadly disease within their own borders?

    Saenz v. Roe (1999), the right of citizens to travel freely among the states has three separate components.

    The Constitution “protects the right of a citizen of one State to enter and to leave another State, the right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than an unfriendly alien when temporarily present in the second State, and, for those travelers who elect to become permanent residents, the right to be treated like other citizens of that State.”

    Abbott’s order largely implicates the second condition: “the right to be treated as a welcome visitor.” He does not actually attempt to bar residents of other states from entering Texas entirely.

    That right, the Court explained in Saenz, flows from Article IV of the Constitution, which provides that “the Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.” Yet Saenz also concluded that these “privileges and immunities” are not absolute. Rather, Article IV bars “discrimination against citizens of other States where there is no substantial reason for the discrimination beyond the mere fact that they are citizens of other States.”

    Thus, there are two potential reasons why Abbott’s order may be legitimate. The first is that it applies to Texans and non-Texans alike — a Houston resident who returns home from a trip to Newark will spend two weeks in isolation, just like a New York resident who travels to Dallas to visit a family member. The second is that Abbott has a “substantial reason” for imposing this order. He believes that it will reduce the number of people who enter Texas carrying a terrible disease.

    To be clear, that does not mean Abbott’s decision to single out four parts of the country is ideal policy. It may be the case, for example, that New York is simply testing more infected people to determine if they have coronavirus — and the virus may be quietly spreading just as rapidly in other parts of the country. Lawyers might also challenge Abbott’s order by arguing that states lack the power to interfere with interstate commerce by trying to prevent travel among the states.

    But courts tend to defer to elected officials and the military during real or perceived national security crises. And they are likely to show similar deference to public health officials during the coronavirus emergency. Cases like Saenz suggest that states need to be careful when drafting interstate travel bans — if Abbott had exempted Texas residents, his order would be much more likely to be struck down — but so long as state officials receive competent legal advice, such bans are likely to be upheld.

    The union is still failing
    But even if such travel bans are legal, they are still indicative of a greater rot within our constitutional system. The premise of our Constitution is that the states gave up some of their sovereign authority to the federal government, in return for mutual benefits such as collective national defense and free trade among the states. The premise of the post-New Deal order is that the federal government must take on additional obligations, including providing a basic social safety net.

    Edwards v. California (1941), an opinion that is imbued with the morality of the New Deal — and that also involved an effort to discourage poor Americans from entering California.

    Prior to Edwards, the Supreme Court had typically allowed states to enact “precautionary measures against the moral pestilence of paupers, vagabonds, and possibly convicts.” Acting under this power, California enacted a law that made it a crime to bring into the state “any indigent person who is not a resident of the State, knowing him to be an indigent person.”

    But Edwards, written by Justice Jimmy Byrnes, struck this law down. And, in doing so, it rejected the very idea that the primary burden of caring for the poor should rest on state or local communities. “In an industrial society,” Byrnes wrote, “the task of providing assistance to the needy has ceased to be local in character”:

    The duty to share the burden, if not wholly to assume it, has been recognized not only by State governments, but by the Federal government, as well. The changed attitude is reflected in the Social Security laws under which the Federal and State governments cooperate for the care of the aged, the blind and dependent children. It is reflected in the works programs under which work is furnished the unemployed, with the States supplying approximately 25% and the Federal government approximately 75% of the cost. It is further reflected in the Farm Security laws, under which the entire cost of the relief provisions is borne by the Federal government.

    In a nation with a weak or miserly federal government, it may have made sense to allow states to lock out poor residents of other states so that they would have more resources to spend on their own poor. But state travel bans targeting the unfortunate no longer made sense in a society with a national safety net.

    Byrnes was arguably the single most influential figure in President Franklin Roosevelt’s inner circle and he was a proud advocate for the New Deal. Indeed, Byrnes was so trusted by Roosevelt that Byrnes left the Supreme Court after only 15 months — to take on a White House job wielding such immense power that he was often labeled the “assistant president.” (It should be noted Byrnes was also a committed racist who would go on to defend segregation as governor of South Carolina — sometimes moral righteousness and great evil live in the same man at the same time).

    So it’s no surprise that Byrnes’s opinion in Edwards was a tribute to the New Deal social safety net. Indeed, Edwards paints the New Deal as the culmination of the union itself. For the first time, an American who fell upon unfortunate times could travel anywhere in the nation, knowing that the federal government would lift them up wherever they settled down. At long last, we were truly one people, and one nation.

    <rest at site>

    Rocket River
     
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    It's an interesting article and as someone who is very interested in the nature of Federalism this is the central argument of the nature of the US since it's founding. This current crisis might be a chapter in that but I don't think it overturns the idea of the United States of America. Governors can and have restricted movement during times of emergency.

    This is yet another issue though it would be good if the Federal government especially the President dealt with better and proactively instead of just ignoring it. As Gov. Inslee said we don't need the Federal government to be a backup coming off the bench. They need to be starting.
     
  3. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member

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    There are a lot of rules being bent right now. A restuarant just handed me a gallon of margaritas with my crawfish.
     
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  4. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Mineshaft Enthusiast

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    There is no reason for any travel right now, outside of shipping goods. No planes. Nada. Shut it down.
     
  5. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Someone want to tell Abbott that Covid is already here?

    Feels like he’s just being Trumpy and political to try and put blame on the libs when Texas inevitably has a spike weeks from now.

    Abbotts a little more clever than Trump and much more polished but he’s cut from the same cloth. I think people should ignore it cause people aren’t traveling anyways. This is dumb and reeks of political gamesmanship.
     
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  6. calurker

    calurker Contributing Member

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    Except Rhode Island has also joined the parade: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...onal-guard-begin-stopping-cars-with-ny-plates
     
  7. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    Dead people don't need any rights...
     
  8. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    What do you think we should do - continue as normal and spread this sh!t from sea to shining sea ? Or take measures to reduce / eliminate the threat ?

    There's literally no cause for travel under the current circumstances - Stay fvcking home. Stay away from people. See you in a month or two.
     
  9. txtony

    txtony Member

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    What about those driving in?
     
  10. Senator

    Senator Member

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    Why have a few die apart when we can all die together! Kanye for President!
     
  11. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    When are people going to realise VOX is communist China propaganda? If they are not getting paid by china they are missing their chance.... they are constantly sewing dischord.
     
  12. txtony

    txtony Member

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    updated to also include travel by road and from ANY location in LA



    “My prior executive order about travel from New Orleans covered air travel from New Orleans into the state of Texas. Now, I am updating that executive order to also include travel by road. Travel by road from any location in the state of Louisiana. Importantly, this executive order does not apply to travel related to commercial activity, military service, emergency response, health response, or critical infrastructure functions. This order will be enforced like the order that I issued previously about travel from New Orleans. It will be enforced by the Department of Public Safety at and near entry points from Louisiana."
     
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  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob my celli weighs a ton

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    Maybe someone who knows more epidemiology can correct me, but this closing of state borders is kind of silly to me, and here's why:

    The virus is established in every state and is expanding in every state. Hospitals all over are reporting disturbing trends.

    So, everyone needs to stay home as much as they feasibly can, practicing social distancing. That's the best we can do. The horses are out of the barn, in other words, including a bunch of invisible, fast-moving horses. Worrying about arbitrary state boundaries is a waste of important manpower and resources.

    But I'm happy to be corrected.
     
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  14. txtony

    txtony Member

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    I was just curious since I have family in both states... but I agree. Everyone should be closely monitoring self and to protect self. Isolate if there is any sign. Be responsible. TX has plenty of unreported cases and is widespread. It’s a bit silly to assume otherwise. As for the DPS, I have no idea what they would do... just remind people to self quarantine or actually take down their name and record where each of them are going... sure seem like a waste of resources.
     
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  15. Trader_Jorge

    Trader_Jorge King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    [Educational Post]
    Sure, I'd be happy to respond to your request. The virus is established in every city and in most communities, so ipso facto, we should no longer be in lockdown or quarantine mode. The horse is out of the barn. Time for society to go back to work to save the economy and allow for high standards of living among the strong and healthy.

    One caveat: New York City needs to be on full lockdown and quarantine. There's a strong evidentiery argument to make it permanent.


    GOOD DAY
     
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  16. txtony

    txtony Member

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  17. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة
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    While it is not the same, the European Union is failing as well, failing in the refugee crisis, letting Erdogan dictating the terms, not able to help out Italy and Spain both medically and financially.

    Regions and countries are on their own.
     
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  18. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Bring on a plane right now is only a half step above being in a hospital.
     
  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    This isn't a time for satire, trolling, or whatever it is you do. Lives are at stake here, and the economy. This is just getting started, and NYC is a hot spot today but it's already permeated everywhere.

    Banning travel from states will not help. The goal is not to stop the spread of the disease - it's too late for that thanks in part because of the attitude of people like you and your leader. The goal is to save lives by not overwhelming the medical system.

    So please, stop this TJ. Troll about anything you want. Post more Biden Sexual Assault article. Mock the libs. Troll on any subject but this one.

    Honestly, I've never thought you as a bad person or malevolent. Your recent posts are beginning to make me rethink that.
     
  20. IBTL

    IBTL Member

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    No one is taking him or any of the other trolls here seriously.

    Dangerously speaking - There is a correlation between republican and super spreader. All we can do is call the cops and fine them. They certainly cannot be any more tone deaf and oblivious.

    If you look at tjs post as extreme republican satire / humor they are sometimes vaguely funny.

    When tj sold his account the new guy that has taken over is slightly less annoying.
     
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