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Circumcision - German court says child's right outweighs parents' rights

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Court says child circumcision 'an assault'

    German ruling says "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of parents".

    Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court has ruled.

    The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled on Tuesday that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.

    "The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court said.

    The case was brought against a doctor in Cologne who circumcised a four-year-old Muslim boy on his parents' wishes.

    A few days after the operation, with the boy bleeding heavily, his parents took him to a hospital. Prosecutors then charged the doctor with grievous bodily harm.

    The doctor was acquitted by a lower court that judged he had acted within the law as the parents had given their consent.
    On appeal, the regional court also acquitted the doctor but for different reasons.

    The regional court upheld the original charge of grievous bodily harm but also ruled that the doctor was innocent as there was too much confusion on the legal situation around circumcision.

    The court came down firmly against parents' right to have the ritual performed on young children.

    'Court not scared off'

    "The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

    The decision caused outrage in Germany's Jewish community.


    The head of the Central Committee of Jews, Dieter Graumann, said the ruling was "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination".

    The judgement was an "outrageous and insensitive act. Circumcision of newborn boys is a fixed part of the Jewish religion and has been practiced worldwide for centuries," added Graumann. "This religious right is respected in every country in the world."

    Holm Putzke, a criminal law expert at the University of Passau, told the Financial Times Deutschland that the ruling was "enormously important for doctors because for the first time they have legal certainty".

    "Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," said Putzke.

    The World Health Organisation has estimated that nearly one in three males under 15 is circumcised. In the United States, the operation is often performed for hygiene reasons on infants.

    Thousands of young boys are circumcised every year in Germany, especially in the country's large Jewish and Muslim communities.

    The court specified that circumcision was not illegal if carried out for medical reasons.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/06/201262743137489117.html

    -------------

    Any opinions on this? I know that circumcision is sort of the norm in the USA and many parts of the world, not so much in Europe.
     
  2. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    imo parents should be given authority to decide something like this
     
  3. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    What if they wanted to put a tattoo on the child's face?
     
  4. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    plenty of tribes around the equator (in brazil for instance) already do this as it's part of their culture. so if the child is born into this and it's basically a part of his/her heritage, i still don't think the state should interfere. it's like young girls getting their ears pierced for earrings....technically it is mutilating the body, but is still considered something perfectly normal b/c it's so commonly done in western culture.
     
  5. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    I see your point.

    I am interested in the situation because a friend of mine was just left by his (Jewish) girlfriend. They have a small baby (like 2 months old). She was never really religious before, but she insisted that the little boy be circumsized. He (the father) has been opposed to it. She left him (for other reasons) and has basically withheld the child from him since then (4 or 5 weeks now). They have a joint right to care for the child, but she has basically kidnapped the child and he doesn't know about their whereabouts.

    He is concerned that she might have just had the procedure done.

    Obviously, it is even more complicated when mother and father cannot agree on what should be done.

    But even when they both want it done, I think it is a legitimate question to ask whether, in reality, the child should decide himself later if he wants this done or not.

    It's a more far-reaching thing than getting ears pierced.
     
  6. ChievousFTFace

    ChievousFTFace Contributing Member

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    The child is jewish because the mother is jewish (but I'm sure you knew that). It's not just a procedure, it's one of the 4 most important ceremonies in a Jewish male's life (bris/circumcision, bar mitzvah, marriage, death). With that being said, I hope she comes around and allows for joint custody. Shame on you Germany for singling out jews again. I was planning on traveling there at some point soon, but those plans just went out the window.
     
  7. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Seriously? Because of a lower court verdict that did not even deal with a Jewish person? :confused:

    What do you think about this initiative then?

    http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/
     
  8. ChievousFTFace

    ChievousFTFace Contributing Member

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    It doesn't matter if it deals with a Jewish person or not. It is commonly known that jews circumcise their babies (and we do it at 8 days). There is nothing cruel about doing it. In fact, the benefits outweigh the risks. (http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision)

    As to your link, I don't even need to open it. They are entitled to live how they want. There's no "circumcision police" forcing them to do it.

    Just because one doctor made a boy bleed heavily doesn't mean you can punish the entire Jewish community by calling their tradition an assault.

    I would tell your friend that it's not the end of the world if his kid gets circumcised. I held both of my nephews during the ceremony and can assure you that there is very little bleeding if the doctor knows what he's doing. In the Jewish communities, they use "moyles" which are typically Jewish doctors that perform the circumcision during the ceremony. I would rather a moyle do it than a random person at a hospital... but that's just my 2 cents. She might have an issue getting a moyle though since the baby is older than 8 days old.

    I'm glad I live in a country that prides itself on religious freedom. A ruling like this would be blasted in the US.
     
  9. Child_Plz

    Child_Plz Member

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    Germany bans circumcision.

    [​IMG]

    I kid I kid
     
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  10. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    It seems like the legal situation in the US is not as clear-cut as you may think.

    http://www.cirp.org/library/legal/

    ------------


    So do you think this should be covered by religious freedom as well? An adult sucking on the baby's bloody penis, potentially infecting it?

    I had never heard of this practice before. :eek:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-d...tory?id=15888618&singlePage=true#.T-rz5iupzZs

    Baby Dies of Herpes in Ritual Circumcision By Orthodox Jews

    New York City is investigating the death last September of a baby who contracted herpes after a "ritual circumcision with oral suction," in an ultra-Orthodox Jewish ceremony known in Hebrew as metzitzah b'peh.

    In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to cleanse the wound.

    The district attorney's office in Kings County Brooklyn is investigating the death of the 2-week-old baby at Maimonides Hospital, but would not disclose the name of the mohel or whether there would be a prosecution.

    "We are looking into it, that's all I can say," a D.A. source told ABCNews.com.

    The 5,000-year-old religious practice is seen primarily in ultra-Orthodox and some orthodox communities and has caused an alarm among city health officials. In 2003 and 2004, three babies, including a set of twins, were infected with Type 1 herpes; the cases were linked to circumcision, and one boy died.

    The mohel who performed the procedures, Yitzchok Fischer, was later banned from doing circumcisions, according to The New York Times. It is not known if he was involved in this recent death.

    "It's certainly not something any of us recommend in the modern infection-control era," said Dr. William Schaffner, chair of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University.

    "This is a ritual of historic Abraham that's come down through the ages, and now it has met modern science," he said. "It was never a good idea, and there is a better way to do this." (The modern Jewish community uses a sterile aspiration device to clean the wound in a circumcision.)

    In the 2004 death and the more recent one, a mohel infected the penile wounds with Type 1 herpes I (HSV-1), which affects the mouth and throat. It is different from Type 2 or genital herpes (HSV-2), which is a sexually transmitted disease and can cause deadly infections when a newborn passes through an infected birth canal.

    Neonatal herpes is "almost always" a fatal infection, according to Schaffner. "It's a bad virus. [Infants] have no immunity and so it's a very serious illness. Now we have another death -- an unnecessary, incredibly tragic death."

    Infections are rare, according to a 2009 study in the New England Journal of Medicine, affecting only one infant in 3,200 births. But it is a serious infection, with a fatality rate of about 64 percent even with antiviral treatment. And fewer than 20 percent of those who survive develop normally.

    Schaffner was a medical consultant in the 2004 death of the twin, when city and state officials butted heads with religious leaders who defended their freedom to continue the traditional practice.

    "Unfortunately, adults can carry the herpes virus without any symptoms," he said. "Applying the mouth to an open wound can transmit the virus, which can disseminate throughout the body of the infant."

    Type 1 herpes is common, and 90 percent of all Americans have experienced infection by the age of 50, the vast majority without symptoms, according to Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases.

    About two-thirds of all infant boys born in New York City's Hasidic communities, who are ultra-Orthodox, are circumcised in the oral suction manner, according to Rabbi David Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel of America.

    "Of course the community is deeply saddened by this terrible tragedy," he wrote to ABCNews.com in an email.

    "We really don't know any of the details as yet," he wrote. "Who was the mohel? Did he take the hygienic precautions prescribed by the NYC Health Department in the 2006 protocol it entered with rabbinic leaders of the Orthodox community, which are designed to reduce the risk of transmitting infection?

    "Did health officials perform the type of investigation described in the protocols to ascertain the source of the infection? What were the results of any such investigation? It is difficult for us (and should be difficult for anyone else) to comment publicly on this tragedy or to draw any firm conclusions."

    Zwiebel said the Orthodox community was "increasingly attuned" to health risks and to the importance of following safety steps.

    Earlier this week, he told the New York Times that mohels were aware of the health risks and hygienic practices and warned that regulation could send them "underground."

    Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Population Growing

    But New York's The Jewish Week exclusively reports that the protocols that were agreed upon by a "broad array" of orthodox rabbis and health officials after the 2004 death were rescinded only a year later in 2007.

    The city required one of three things, at the mohel's option: continue abstaining from the practice until he could be ruled out as the source of infection; agree to take anti-viral medication for the rest of his life; or take medication for three days before the circumcision.

    The state health department dropped those protocols when a new governor --- then Democrat Eliot Spitzer -- took office and a new health commissioner was appointed.

    The newspaper reports that the metzitzah b'peh practice is still "in widespread use."

    The numbers of ultra-Orthodox Jews are growing rapidly, according to a study by University of Florida geography professor Joshua Comenetz, mostly because they have so many children.

    He completed the first population survey based on the 2010 U.S. Census, estimating there were about 180,000 or 3 percent of the total number of Jews in the U.S.

    In New York City, home to about 100,000 Orthodox Jews, the communities are reclusive, but they're also powerful voting blocks. Public officials try to work closely with their leaders to educate them about modern health practices and to encourage changes in a religious practice that is largely unregulated.

    "Reluctance is a matter of respect," said Schaffner. "But then we have the occasional infant who succumbs."

    If the mohel has an infection in the mouth and throat, the virus is transmitted to a baby's circumcision wound directly through saliva. From an inflamed wound, it can get into the bloodstream and travel to the brain, causing dangerous encephalitis and either brain damage or death.

    The herpes virus is so contagious that when medical professionals give mouth care to patients, they wear gloves, according to Schaffner.

    "If they don't, nicks around the nails can be infected with the patient's herpes virus," he said. "They can get bad infections on the fingers."

    During the investigation of the 2004 death, rabbis proposed health safeguards, "but none of them provide assurances of safety," according to Schaffner.

    One was to use an antiviral medication on the infant's wound, treatments that have not been tested for that purpose. The other was to use an antibiotic cream, which is ineffective against a virus.

    "The standard is looking for zero infection and even if there is one, it's unacceptable," said Schaffner. "[The orthodox community] has a hard time getting their brains around this. The ancients are simply wrong about this."
     
  11. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    Good decision.
     
  12. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    u bring up a very good point, in the case of the parents being from different cultures it can get really complicated then. in such a situation i'd say the state should always just defer to the father's decisions, as men typically base their views on logic while women tend to rely on stupid emotion :grin:
     
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  13. ChievousFTFace

    ChievousFTFace Contributing Member

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    While there are cases... we kinda have this little clause in our constitution:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    As to the ultra orthodox (they wouldn't even consider me jewish) moyle, that guy should be in prison for infecting the baby. As to the sucking the blood from the incision (yuck), there's nothing sexual about it. The ultra orthodox just don't adopt modern techniques. Would I let this be done to my child? Hell no.
     
  14. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    From that Jews against circumcision website:

    I understand that you have strong feelings about this issue. I enjoy your posts. I am not trying to be confrontational here.

    Just seems like there is a conflict between the interest of the child in having his physical integrity preserved and the religious freedom of the parents, a conflict which is at least worth discussing.
     
  15. fadeaway

    fadeaway Contributing Member

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    Who initially decided to start doing this, I wonder, and what was the rationale?

    Circumcision just seems like a really weird thing to do. I'd like to know the thought process of the people who decided to start this custom (or maybe I don't :eek:).
     
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  16. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    If she gets the procedure done the penis will still work fine.......

    DD
     
  17. ChievousFTFace

    ChievousFTFace Contributing Member

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    Circumcision v Polygamy = Apples v Oranges

    From a government standpoint, marriage serves as a function for couples to change the way they file taxes and own property. It saves the government time and money on how estates are divided in cases of people dying without a will. Polygamy would create such a cloud in the division of interests, even in cases of consenting adults.

    A better example would be if a religion calls for human sacrifice. Of course murder (or even assisted suicide if there is a willing sacrifice) is against the laws of the land, so religious rights would be trumped by state law.

    Yes, I will always be skeptical of courts that hold so much power over the masses. While Germans may believe they are acting in a non-discriminatory manner, it is in fact an attack on the religious rights of a large group of its citizens.

    If Germany does in fact adopt this policy across the nation, don't be surprised if you see a large exodus of Jews from your country. I would support a large boycott of all German goods because of this policy.

    I enjoy the discussions as well and I wouldn't take anything personally.
     
  18. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I had a friend who's father was Muslim (which made him Muslim), his mother was Jewish (which made him Jewish) and he was born in the Soviet Union, which means he was raised atheist.

    Opting out of the whole circumcision business altogether was much easier than arguing at what age it should be done. Everyone was cool with it until he was seven, moved to Israel with his mom and the religious authorities demanded they circumcise him. And you don't win fights with them.

    When he was drafted at 18, he refused to serve in the army. They asked him why, and he explained that he had no desire to give three years of his life to the same people that cut off part of his body against his will.

    He served nearly a year in prison, but avoided the army. He also reputably has a very small penis.
     
  19. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    Abraham?
     
  20. ChievousFTFace

    ChievousFTFace Contributing Member

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    I'm sure that was very traumatizing for him. Shame on the government for doing that. There is nothing Jewish about forcing circumcision. It should be considered a joyous occasion regardless of what age it's done at. Don't blame him at all for doing what he did.
     

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