With all this garbage going about how the Big Dumb Ass already belongs with the Wilt, Russell, and JaBlunt, I want to know who you'll think are the best centers of all time. 1 Wilt Chamberlain - any guy who scored 100 freakin points has to be good. 2 championships and 50 point averages and 25 reb averages dont hurt either. 2 Hakeem - 2 championships, offensive and defensive superstar. 3 Russell - yeah 11 championships, but there were like what 8 stinky teams when he played? Also he specialized just on defense, his offense as far as I know was nothing to write home about. 4 JaBlunt - This crack smoking fool won rings because he had absolutely no counterpart at the center position (and no bill walton dosent count) 5 Big Cry Baby - this fool cant even stay in a freakin game with 2 min to go, and he already is supposed to be the top three? plus he has only one ring so far. And he doesnt have anyone except Zo in the eastern conference to worry about at the center position. 6 David Robinson - I hate his wussy ass but so far you could argue he is just like the Big Stupid Ass. One championship ring, and I'm sure the offensive stats are not that apart. I mean david used to be a monster offensively also. unless Kazoom wins one more david and shaq would be close. ------------------ MANGO - Get in my BELLAY!
Hard for me to actually rank these guys, I'll do it by tier: Top Tier Kareem Russel Chamberlain Hakeem Second Tier Moses Malone -- he was pretty good, remember? Willis Reed -- tough as freaking nails Patrick Ewing -- a warrior Shaq -- yep, he's up here now Honorable Mention to Robert Parish, David Robinson (would've made the second tier if Hakeem hadn't made him look ridiculous in 95), George Mikan (why not -- the guy invented the modern center position), and Bill Walton. ------------------
Shawn Bradley, Serge Zwicker, Oliver Miller. Seriously though, Shaq is a dominant force in the league and you have to rank him with guys like Wilt, on their day impossible to stop. ------------------
I would rank them differently, but only because I won't rank players who are still playing : Top Tier : Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Second Tier Nate Thurmond Moses Malone Willis Reed Honorable mention goes to George Mikan for making this debate possible, Wes Unseld for being a 6-6 center who averaged 14.0 rebounds a game and Robert Parish for playing more games than anyone else and being part of one of the greatest frontlines in history. ------------------ Its only my opinion. Feel free to disagree. [This message has been edited by Puedlfor (edited June 20, 2000).]
Puedlfor, I don't see how Moses and Parrish can share the same tier. Moses was a dominant force, Parrish was just a very good player for a long time. Last night stats about Kareem (averaging what 30 and 15 his first 8 years--either regular seasons or playoffs) makes me realize I undervalued his greatness the other day. He did carry a Milwalkee team to the a ring himself as well. I would have to go: Wilt Kareem Russell Hakeem (Hakeem might be #3 I trully believe if you plugged him for Russell those Boston teams would only be better. Still, it is hard to discount Russell's hardware) and probably Shaq, Moses and maybe Thurman next. Ewing, Parrish or Robinson do not deserve to be in the same conversation as the above guys. They have zero argument for being the best, or close to the best. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
Well, for starters, within the same tier there is variation. I would agree that Moses is better than Parish, but Moses was the center for a couple of good teams, whilst Parish was part of one of the greatest frontlines in history. Had he been the center of any other team I think his numbers might have been different. But you're right, I should knock Parrish down to Honorable mention. ------------------ Its only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
Got to be patriotic Luc Longley and Chris Anstey ------------------ CUT Tino Isn't it amazing how quickly everyone did a Cat Backflip!!!!!
I've thought about this subject for years now. To my distaste Shaq has been moving up the list of "Greatest Centers of All Times" just about every year he's been in the league. But, this doesn't mean that I think he is the greastest, nor does it mean that I believe he will become the greatest. So, here's my thoughts on some of the greatest centers. 1. Wilt Chamberlain - In my heart, I believe that Hakeem is the best center ever, but it's hard to be in a debate and come up with enough reasons to put him ahead of Wilt. It's hard to argue with 50 pts and 25 rebs a game, but one should consider the competition he had to face game in and game out. His most well known nemesis was Bill Russell. Russell was 6'9 1/2", while Wilt stood 7'2". Plus, Russell had absolutely no offense to make Wilt work hard on the defensive end of the court. Other than Russell, who else stood in the way of him scoring all those points? 6'8" unathletic guys? 2. Hakeem Olajuwon - Hakeem may not have quite the same offensive numbers as a Chamberlain or Kareem, but he's not that far off. How many points did Wilt average when he won his championship with the Lakers? 17, not so great is it? Besides, Hakeem is twice the defender Kareem ever was on a good day. Jabbar's team-mates have said that his idea of defense was to outscore his opponent. Russell may and I stress may be on the same level of defense as Hakeem, but then Hakeem was twice the offensive player Russell was. 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - The man played for twenty years and was still able to average over 24 pts and 11 rebs a game. Of course, he holds the record for most points scored, but that doesn't impress me as much as his .559 FG%. His "sky hook" was simply unstoppable. He was instrumental in the Bucks championship and at least three of the five Laker championships he played in. 4. Shaquille O'Neal - Shaq is gaining fast on Kareem in my opinion. If he can continue to play at the level he has the past couple of season, he could surpass Olajuwon and possibly even Wilt, depending on how many championships he wins and how long he can stay on top. But, I'm not a huge fan of O'Neal. Honestly, I don't want to see him become better than the Dream in his prime, and I don't think he has just yet. But, what he has done is improve his defense and passing. But, in order for him to be better than Hakeem, he will have to improve his steals, blocks, FT shooting, and maintain his assists. Right now he has better numbers in FG% and PPG, but at eight years in the league Hakeem actually had a better rebound per game average (12.53) than O'Neal (12.39). 5. Bill Russell - I only put him this high because he was able to win, and win, and win, and win, and ... you get the point. But, with a lifetime FG% of .440, FT% of .561, and PPG of 15.1, it is hard to prove statistically why he belongs here. Of course, you must take into account his 22.5 rebound average and 4.3 assist average. THINGS I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH: 1. Wilt was the most dominant player of all times. He straight up demolished those short non-athletic players. 2. Russell was the most accomplished winner of all times. You can't argue with eleven rings in thirteen years. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited June 20, 2000).]
I was going with Kareem Abdul JaBONG these days but JaBlunt is just as funny! ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!
DREAMer, we completely agree on Wilt, yeah! To all, I really would have put Kareem lower too except for my re-examination of his early years. The Kareem that Hakeem and Sampson beat int he conference finals was not close to the Kareem of 10 years before (though we was better than Dream was versus Shaq last year, despite Hakeem being younger). When you consider his career numbers, 6 rings, and performance in his dominant years (quite a few 30+ 15+ seasons, with plenty of blocks too), I think he is probably should be considered the 3rd best NBA player ever, and second best center. Hakeem would be the 3rd best center in my book. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited June 21, 2000).]
One thing to remember about Russell is that he benefitted greatly by being the Anti-Wilt. Even though he had his own issues in Boston, there was a definite favoritism toward him on behalf of the press, especially after he retired and Wilt continued to dominate yet failed to rack up championships. I think the image of Russell is greatly influenced by the search for a counterpart to Wilt which is all the more testament to Wilt's greatness. Interestingly, when Kareem came on the scene, there was a little shift toward Wilt with Kareem playing the part of "bad guy," due in no small part to his name change and religious conversion. All of this is a long way of saying I agree with Sir Scar... I too would put Hakeem as the third best center of alltime, behind Wilt and Kareem. However, even though Kareem may have had more blocks, I think Hakeem is the standard by which center defense should be measured. ------------------ "Texas remains our largest unfrozen state"
Here are Oscar Robertson's views on where Shaq ranks with the best of all-time: http://www.athletedirect.com/AthleteDirect/ad/legends/leg_my_anecdotes.jsp?BV_SessionID=796726391.961642281&BV_EngineID=falididgddlbfejchicgencgjo.0&ARTICLE=50378&ATH_ID=030043
rimrocker, Kareem doesn't have more blocks than Hakeem. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page
DREAMer-- I know Kareem has less blocks on the record books, but as has been noted on this board recently, blocks were not kept as a stat by the NBA until well into Kareem's career. As another poster stated in a different thread, if you took Kareem's career average for blocks and applied that number to the years blocks were not a stat, Kareem would have significantly more than Hakeem. ------------------ "Texas remains our largest unfrozen state" [This message has been edited by rimrocker (edited June 22, 2000).]
Best shot blocking centers 1. Hakeem Olajuwon 2. Kareem Abdul 3. Mark Eaton 4. Manute Bol 5. Mutombo the elbow ------------------
Hakeem is well in excess of 300+ blocks ahead of Kareem anyway...and Hakeem is still playing. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back! [This message has been edited by HOOP-T (edited June 22, 2000).]
As pointed out, who knows what the block tallies would be for Russell, Wilt and Kareem. it is kind of unfair to compare Dream's totals to the others because of lack of stat keeping. That said, I am fairly confident Dream would be ahead in steals, and made defensive plays I don't think any other big man ever could. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
I refuse to put Shaq in the top five until his defense improves. He can't even stop Rik Smits from getting his shot off, and I know his blocks per game avg would decrease if the refs stopped letting him camp out in the lane. He is an unstoppable force close to the basket though. ------------------
