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At what point do we need to re-evaluate the death penalty in Texas?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by bucket, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. bucket

    bucket Member

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    It doesn't seem like our justice system understands the gravity of putting people to death. I bolded the part where things start to reflect badly on our state.


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    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/21/texas.moore.execution/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

    (CNN) -- A former drug dealer was executed in Texas on Wednesday night for the murders of two reputed gang members -- 15 years to the day after the crime.

    Moore, 49, was pronounced dead at 7:21 p.m. ET, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice said.

    "Self-defense is not capital murder," Moore said before the lethal injection began, echoing his unsuccessful claims to the courts to prevent his execution.

    Moore did not deny firing the fatal shots outside a San Antonio bar but insisted he acted in self-defense and did not deserve to die.

    Moore was the second death row inmate to be executed in 2009. He spoke at length with CourtTVnews.com in 2007.

    Samuel Boyd and Patrick Clark were shot multiple times in the head and chest early in the morning of January 21, 1994, outside the Wheels of Joy bar.

    "They came with intentions to kill me," Moore said in the interview. "It was a do-or-die situation."

    But no witnesses ever came forward at trial to corroborate Moore's self-defense claims. Prosecutors contended that Moore, a long-time gang member with a lengthy rap sheet dating back to his teens, shot the two in cold blood to assert his authority after a shoving match broke out in the bar, according to court records.

    A Bexar County jury convicted Moore and sentenced him to death, but his conviction was reversed in 1998 after the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals found error in the trial court's refusal to give the jury the option of convicting Moore of a lesser offense. Even so, Moore was convicted and sentenced to death at his second trial in 1999.

    Moore insisted he acted in self-defense when he opened fire on Boyd, 23, and Clark, 15, at a bar near the housing projects where Moore admitted he sold crack cocaine and weapons.

    But it was not until 2006 that a private investigator, who once worked against Moore and his fellow gangsters, came forward with information that Moore said corroborated his self-defense claims.

    Warren Huel, a retired Navy Seal who was in charge of the private security firm that oversaw the projects, was the first peace officer on the scene, arriving about 45 minutes before the San Antonio Police Department, according to an affidavit.

    During that time, Huel said he spoke with witnesses who reported that Boyd and Clark shot at Moore first from inside the car after trying to run him over, according to the affidavit.

    Witnesses also told Huel that they had seen the victims' relatives remove their weapons from the car before police arrived, Huel stated in the affidavit.

    When Huel attempted to share the information with San Antonio Police, he says the officers told him to forget everything he had seen and learned, he said in an affidavit.

    "I was told that did not matter, as they already had Frank Moore, the murder weapon and an eyewitness," Huel stated in his affidavit. "I was told Moore was a dope dealer and had to go to jail."

    Since then, three others have come forward claiming they witnessed the shootings, providing similar details, said Moore's lawyer, David Sergi.

    "Unfortunately, people from the street didn't come forward to testify at the time of the trial," he said. "The problem is, the law doesn't allow for a change of circumstances."

    The Texas State Attorney's Office argued that Moore's claims should be dismissed because the evidence had always been available, and was not the "newly discovered" evidence the law requires.

    A lower court sided with the state, prompting Moore to appeal to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. On Monday, the court declined to hear his claims, making the U.S. Supreme Court Moore's last chance for a reprieve. The justices remained silent on the matter.
     
  2. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    What is the purpose of the death penalty?

    Is it more cost effective?
    Does it deter more crimes?
     
  3. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    2 things here, what was a 15 year old doing at a bar and why would you change the death penalty. I know its painful but do you think the people that were murdered did not feel pain? You wanna be treated like a human then be a human don't be an animal and kill someone. You know how many times a day the thought of killing somebody crosses my mind? O yea none
     
  4. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    I also wanted to say I like the saudi method of cutting of thieves arms, man if we did that here I don't think we'd have nearly as much crime
     
  5. kikimama

    kikimama Member

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    I think the main point against the death penalty is getting the correct person. Not what your talking about.
     
  6. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    read the chronicle story, the guy went in on a cocaine charge and was supposed to be locked up for 10 years or something but he got out in a few months. Then he got caught again with the whole cocaine thing and was sentenced to 20 years but again let out early. So in the end something tells me this world was a better place with him behind bars simply put whether he murdered someone or not the world didn't exactly lose a productive human being
     
  7. Gakatron

    Gakatron Contributing Member

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    Don't have it where I live and while I agree most of them deserve to die... when there's that little chance you might kill an innocent person then i don't think it should be done.
     
  8. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    I don't think the death penalty is to blame for poor courtroom machinations.
     
  9. LongTimeFan

    LongTimeFan Contributing Member

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    Why does someone deserve to die if he acted in self-defense?

    Is killing nine guilty people worth killing one innocent person?
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    As soon as all the criminals are dead.
     
  11. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    If you are a Houstonian you should not support the Death Penalty, especially after the scandal of the HPD crime lab being ran by incompetent and underqualified people.
     
  12. bucket

    bucket Member

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    So you think it's ok to execute a person for a crime they didn't commit as long as they're not exactly a "productive human being"?

    It's people like you that make our state look bad. Just kill 'em all! As much as I love Texas, we are at our very worst when we let anger and prejudice overrule our senses of justice, dispassionate reason, and respect for Constitutional rights. I thought you were all for Joe Horn when he shot two men in "self defense". These men may actually have been shooting at the defendant. I take it that you believe he deserved to die just because he was a dealer? Also, this is far from the only case where the use of capital punishment has been questionable, at best.

    I'll be out of town for the next few days, so I won't be able to respond to posts.
     
  13. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    bucket.

    I was being extremely sarcastic.

    Carry on.

    DD
     
  14. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    We should expand its role. Like China who has already sentenced two to death for killing babies with tainted milk.
     
  15. finalsbound

    finalsbound Contributing Member

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    No

    and

    no
     
  16. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    Again - this would only seem to indicate a need to fix the crime lab ops, not do away with the death penalty. Your priorities are mixed up, in my opinion.
     
  17. Lynus302

    Lynus302 Contributing Member

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    In theory, I agree with the death penalty. In practice....that's another story.

    Were I governor, for example, and I knew that I had the power to save someone's life with a simple phone call, I think I'd make that call each and every time, regardless of their crimes. This all assumes that the death penalty would then be commuted to a life sentence, of course.
     
  18. Major

    Major Member

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    Except these failures happen all over the country. The number of people having convictions overturned due to DNA evidence is incredible - and it tells you how unreliable juries and eyewitness evidence can be. How many other innocent people have gotten and are still getting executed because the DNA evidence isn't still available?

    The death penalty is also dramatically affected by the people in charge - Roland Burris, new Senator from Illinois, tried his best to get the death penalty for a man he knew to be innocent to show he was "tough on crime" when he was the Illinois AG - and he succeeded for a short time before appeal after appeal got him freed.

    All in all, we have yet to find a good, reliable way to apply it. Maybe if you made more restrictions, like there had to be conclusive affirmative DNA evidence or something like that, it might work. But as it is, it's a completely unreliable tool that is applied pretty arbitrarily and has a pretty bad track record of being applied to innocent people.
     
  19. BleedsRocketRed

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    no
    no
     
  20. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    I view the two (evidence/trials and punishment) as competely seperate. If you think there is a lack of adequate evidence or fair trials, I'd have to wonder why you feel any punishment allowable, given that it could be unjust.

    And no, simply saying "well, you're talking death vs jail" is not an adequate response. We are discussing justice in light of misgivings regarding evidence and fairness. Discussions of the moral righteousness (or lack thereof) regarding the death penalty should be distinct.
     

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