Are Talented Bigs Fools Gold?

I've thought about this for about 4 seasons now. I think you're right. They are fools gold.

The one who has biggest potential to win among those is Towns.

 

Gimmick is not the right word.

Is it lack of great bigs or are you actually saying Dream, Duncan and Shaq would not win championships in this new era? Because if you are saying it's the new era, then you are implying Dream, Duncan and Shaq would be gimmicks, too.

Also, if you think it's the era and these young bigs are actually just as good as Dream, Duncan and Shaq, note that both Towns and Embiid are shooting 37% from 3s on 3.4 attempts per game. You can't leave them out there open. So even they can spread the floor to open the lane for wing attacks.

 

Is this new to you? The league has been phasing out bigs for over a decade now. It's a perimeter game now and bigs are trying to live in the perimeter too to stay alive, but they just aren't as effective used in that way IMO and it's a waste. I get so mad seeing guys who have the potential to be such beast low post offensive and defensive players but decide to just stand around the 3 point line and shy away from contact on D.

 

I think Dream, Duncan, and Yao would be shooting at least some 3s if they played now. Shaq has no touch. He'd be a rich man's Dwight.

I think it is a combination of a long drought of good low post bigs (Shaq, Duncan, Yao, and Cousins are the only ones I can think of in the first decade of 21st century) and the change of the game towards 3pt shooting due to the rise of analytics.

 

I wouldn't call any of those bigs fools gold. I would just say they are pretty much ALL stuck in KG like careers playing for garbage franchises that don't know how to build winning teams.

DeMarcus Cousins made the biggest mistake. In theory, it sounds scary as hell pairing up with AD, but it's just not going to work. Not that they won't be a tough playoff team next year, but not a contender. Boogie should have demanded a trade to a winning franchise while he had his chance to get out of that dumpster town. KAT and Embiid should ditch as soon as those rookie contracts are out. AD will probably have the real KG career where he won't leave till hes starting to exit his prime after it's too late to realize he will never win in New Orleans.

Can you imagine any one of those guys with Harden or Westbrook or even CP3? Instant contender.

 

What if Dream and Duncan didn't shoot threes. Do you think Dream, Duncan and Shaq would be gimmicks in this new era, incapable of winning anymore than Davis and Cousins?

 

I think in the past, having a quality big was the best and most efficient way to get easy baskets. I don't think that is the case anymore. Shooting and offenses overall have evolved a lot since then

 

Dirk lead the Mavs to a ring in 11.

 

Most of them are too young to win or have been pestered with constant injuries. (Embiid, AD). Most players don't start "winning" until they are 25-26+ . They still have a LOT of time to improve. Right now none of those except imo Embiid can carry their team to the playoffs by themselves.
But in 2-3 years when all of them will be playing in May the narrative will change and we will see "a new golden generation of big men" in headlines.

 

marc gasol seems to always get lost in the discussion when it comes to bigs and he has shown year after year he has a + impact on winning

 

I wouldn't say they were "gimmicks." I don't think Davis and Cousins are gimmicks. They would just not be as effective as in the 20th century. The abolishing of illegal defense rule limited the low post game.

For example, Yao would have been more dominant if he played in the 90s. By the time he came to the league, the defense could double team or weak side shadow him without the ball. We'd been saying for years how Seattle used illegal defense to bother Dream. How much more would he have been bothered if that defense was legal like the current era?

That's why big men have to be able to step out to hit shots in order to soften the defense down low. Those who can only live close to the basket can't carry the team's offense. They can be defended more easily than the wing players who can create from the perimeter.

 

Big man is dead. Game changed.

The rules are now made for little man. All the successful teams are full of little girls or tall talented 3 or 4.

That's why AD, Cuz, and KTOWN can't even make it to the playoff.

Morey was the first to realize 3 > 2. Golden State stole Morey's idea and built a team full of 3 shooters

 

None of these bugs can hold a candle to the those old bigs. People don't understand the concept of shooting and shooting range. 3 pts signify range, but it doesn't mean a player can shoot. Dream, Duncan, David, Ewing, and Mourning could shoot. That's why all were mid to high 70s from the ft line. If they wanted, they could have extended their range. That's why it was no surprise when Bosh started shooting 3s. He was already shooting from 20 ft, 3 more isn't that big of a deal.

I think great players transcend time. If Shaq was playing now, he would be the same dominant player he was when he played. They wouldn't be talking about how Draymond can guard all 5 positions if he had to guard Shaq, Dream, David, Ewing, and Duncan. He would get abused. These new bigs are so versatile that they aren't great at anything. AD is a dribble drive big, Cousins doesn't have shot discipline. KAT seems like the one, but he doesn't have a go to yet. How is the game different now than when Dream played? The only difference is the offense started on the blocks Vs 25 feet out. 95 Rox, Dream on the blocks, 3 pt shooters on the arc.

 

Ummm... what? Have you not followed the NBA rule change??? All the rule change favorite the little.

Teams can now play ZONE DEFENSE, illegal. They can camp and have 2 to 3 guarding the bigs and how often do you see illegal D now? It used to be Illegal Defense all the time when they tried to double Hakeen without the ball. Now team can send 2 to 3 guys at Hakeem and not worry about getting called for Illegal D because Zone Defense is now Illega.

The Supersonics used Illegal D to defend Hakeem and it was never called. Now everyone use it to defend big

 

By Dr. Jack Ramsay
Special to ESPN.com

Rule change to get rid of Iso play with Big man in the post.


Editor's Note: ESPN NBA analyst and Hall of Fame coach Dr. Jack Ramsay was on an 11-member committee that met March 20-21 in Phoenix and endorsed ways to improve the game, including the use of zone defenses. Also on the committee, headed by Phoenix Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, were Theo Ratliff, Jerry West, Rod Thorn, Wayne Embry, Bob Lanier, Stu Jackson, Russ Granik and supervisor of officials Ed Rush.

The committee unanimously recommended to eliminate the illegal defensive guidelines because of the inactive offensive game that they fostered. There were too many isolations on one or two offensive players while the others stood on the opposite side of the floor pointing out to officials what they perceived to be illegal defenses of the opponent.



Shaq has flexed his muscles in the Lakers' back-to-back title runs, but could he strongarm Wilt?

Basketball is supposed to be a five-man game; isolations make for an inactive and unattractive game that doesn't involve all five players. Allowing defensive freedom will take away the standstill part of the game. In addition, there has always been a cloud of uncertainty among players, coaches and officials about the rules regarding illegal defense.

Plus, the fans have no clue. Most don't understand what is or isn't legal. The rule change removes any uncertainty about illegal defense. The term "illegal defense" is gone after this season.

There are two other worthwhile changes: a defensive three-second count, in which a defender cannot be in the lane for three seconds without guarding somebody, which means an arm's length away from an offensive player; and an eight-second count in the backcourt, instead of 10. It will speed up the game and also invite trapping defenses. We should see a quicker pace, more strategy and more open-court opportunities.

Everybody on the committee feels good about the changes, especially the removal of defensive restrictions. Isolations are not appealing to a player who is asked to stand outside the 3-point line on offense while one or two players play and try to score. The NBA was the only league to put a limit on the kind of defense a team could play. No other level of basketball requires a team to play its defenders in certain parts of the playing area.

So then why did the NBA prohibit zone defenses in the first place? The league banned the zone defense in January of 1947, halfway through its first year of its existence -- and it's been banned ever since. The Pittsburgh Ironmen, who lasted only one season, played zone defense. I went to see the Ironmen play against the old Philadelphia Warriors, and their defense was so bad it was ludicrous. The league only banned the zone because it was bad, not because it was difficult for teams to play against.

Through the years teams have managed to use double-teams and some zone principles. When Joe Mullaney coached the Lakers during the 1969-70 season, with Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, he tried to play a combination zone defense, which he had used very successfully in college at Providence. But at the end of the year, I remember him telling me that the defense doesn't work in the NBA.




“ The NBA's nuts-and-bolts defense will remain man-to-man with weak-side help. Man-to-man defense will be just as intense as ever and will win. Teams that go to the playoffs won't be ones that play zone defense -- I guarantee it. ”
With no restrictions on defense next season, people assume a lot of teams will play a zone. I don't think they will because a zone can't be effective in the NBA. Teams could play a combination zone, but I don't see it working. So eventually, we will still see one-on-one matchups.

The NBA's nuts-and-bolts defense will remain man-to-man with weak-side help. Man-to-man defense will be just as intense as ever and will win. Teams that go to the playoffs won't be ones that play zone defense -- I guarantee it.

Zone defense will, however, increase the number of strategies a coach can use. I think NBA coaches will try to put some kind of zone defense together to see how effective it can be, but it won't be a team's principal defense. And offensively, coaches must have an attack ready in case a team plays a zone defense. It will become part of a team's preparation.

Most of the fears about zone defense are groundless. Detractors have said the offenses will become stationary and end with a lot of 3-point shots. If you are playing against a zone, you don't beat it from the outside. The best strategies against the zone are to either beat it down the floor, or to get the ball into the heart of the zone and beat it inside as well as on the perimeter, with a good balance between the two.

The rule change will not help or hurt anybody. A team can put two defenders on Allen Iverson and play three on the rest of the team. If that's the case, then Philadelphia will have to find a way to run Iverson off screens so he can get the ball and go to work. Larry Brown will figure out a way to make it happen, and it won't bother Iverson.

If Shaquille O'Neal is triple-teamed, then there will be four players on two defenders. That's not good math, especially when one of the other players is Kobe Bryant.

A lack of defensive restrictions will increase the demand for players to have better all-around skills, especially passing. Teams will need five players on the floor who can pass the ball and some good perimeter shooters. And defenders must be alert, quick and ready to make adjustments. Those are all good qualities.

I was talking to Lakers coach Phil Jackson on Wednesday night, and he was proposing ways for teams to put two defenders on Shaq. I told him they could under the new rules. And if Shaq stands still, he will have a problem. But if Shaq moves, the ball moves and his teammates are aware of what's happening, Shaq will kill the defense. He is too good.

I have high hopes for the changes to have a positive impact on the game. It's been a long time coming. The game should be very interesting and appealing to watch, to coach and to play, with no more mystique about illegal defense.

 

Just because someone can shoot doesn't mean he also can't post up. For example KAT and Embiid do have very nice post moves already.
Porzingis and Drummond don't.
It is way too early and UNFAIR to compare players at their age to retired legends. Most of those players weren't winning at their age either.

 

Post play just isnt the most efficient shot anymore. Points-per-possession on post-ups is way less than other type possessions, its diluted points compared to other looks.

Back in days of illegal defense / no zone, and importance of 2 point shots, big men could feast inside against ONLY one primary defender. That was the most high % shot teams could get. You could just dump it into posted up big man and let him work. Nowadays the paint is too clogged up with defenders, and its easier to deny big men the ball even before getting it.

Oddly, the top 20 scorers each season even DECADES ago was still MOSTLY wing players. So its not like centers / big men have always dominated scoring lists, its always been wings. It just happened that some particularly GOOD big men came through

 

Bigs will be drawn out of the paint......frequently and there might not be another Shaq or Hakeem, Kareem or Bill Russell.

They will be skilled and put up good stats but I do not see them dominating an entire series!

 

Those big you mentioned are also stuck in shitty organizations with bad front offices.