Either start Lin, or bring in a new starting PG, Bev ain't cuttin' it.

Chris Jent MVP · Dec 28, 2013

tonman said: ↑

if you go your route and keep PB as a cheap alternative and let Lin go, you're not gaining anything because you only have room for another big time FA unless you trade Lin for someone in return where you can resign afterwards. and in that case you're going for another position other than PG because of your logic but it's already filled with Howard at C, Harden at SG, and Parsons at SF and some player from an Asik trade/FA signing.
Click to expand...

good post.

Lin isn't "too expensive" for Les, and he isn't preventing any major FA acquisition. Also, in the real world outside of ClutchFans, Lin is actually quite popular. There is no reason for Les to get rid of him.

Lin is staying with Rockets. Deal with it!!

zipcrash · Dec 28, 2013

pacmania said: ↑

Yup. Kevin Mchale pretty much screwed up the Timberwolves so bad they're still hurting until now. Imagine losing FOUR FIRST ROUND PICKS for an under-the-table deal for JOE SMITH.

And then capping that off by trading the star player to his beloved boston celtics. And the celtics ended up winning the championship that year.

Mchale was a man with CHARACTER and COMPETENCE issues before the Rockets hired him.
Click to expand...

kahn wasnt good either.

King1 · Dec 28, 2013

I still think he's at best an average defender but as long as he can play around this level offensively we need to start him. Our bench depth is terrible but I like the chemistry I'm seeing amongst the starters these past few games. The Memphis game was normally one we lose

pacmania · Dec 28, 2013

zipcrash said: ↑

kahn wasnt good either.
Click to expand...

Kahn wasn't good but its pretty hard to top losing four (4) first round picks in an under the table deal for joe smith. Risk and Reward ratio is very lopsided.

And the rookie draft prospects during that period were pretty good.

zipcrash · Dec 28, 2013

pacmania said: ↑

Kahn wasn't good but its pretty hard to top losing four (4) first round picks in an under the table deal for joe smith. Risk and Reward ratio is very lopsided.

And the rookie draft prospects during that period were pretty good.
Click to expand...

bring up kahn and point guards to a minny fan. they will go OFF.

dantian · Dec 28, 2013

Lin needs gelling with the starters particularly Howard, and needs good instruction from good coaches (not available right now) to improve on his weakness.
He has the best court vision to direct the offense and had many hockey assists in the win against Grizz. But his handle and decision making in the paint (like controlling the pace and running paths after PnR) is still suspect, which leads to many TOs. I wonder whether they really teach him anything in the practices, as for a smart kid he does the same mistakes over and over again. And he might be intimidated by McHale's short leash. He seemed liberated in the 4th q. after AB checked out with injury, meaning no threat any more to be yanked at a mistake. Anyways, i don't see Lin improves his play much under this circumstances.

THE DR34M · Dec 28, 2013

dantian said: ↑

Lin needs gelling with the starters particularly Howard, and needs good instruction from good coaches (not available right now) to improve on his weakness.
He has the best court vision to direct the offense and had many hockey assists in the win against Grizz. But his handle and decision making in the paint (like controlling the pace and running paths after PnR) is still suspect, which leads to many TOs. I wonder whether they really teach him anything in the practices, as for a smart kid he does the same mistakes over and over again. And he might be intimidated by McHale's short leash. He seemed liberated in the 4th q. after AB checked out with injury, meaning no threat any more to be yanked at a mistake. Anyways, i don't see Lin improves his play much under this circumstances.
Click to expand...

His work ethic and improvement is something he should be regarded for not doubted against. He seems to get in a habit of proving doubters wrong time and time again.

bws · Dec 28, 2013

dantian said: ↑

Lin needs gelling with the starters particularly Howard, and needs good instruction from good coaches (not available right now) to improve on his weakness.
He has the best court vision to direct the offense and had many hockey assists in the win against Grizz. But his handle and decision making in the paint (like controlling the pace and running paths after PnR) is still suspect, which leads to many TOs. I wonder whether they really teach him anything in the practices, as for a smart kid he does the same mistakes over and over again. And he might be intimidated by McHale's short leash. He seemed liberated in the 4th q. after AB checked out with injury, meaning no threat any more to be yanked at a mistake. Anyways, i don't see Lin improves his play much under this circumstances.
Click to expand...

Yes. He can only improve his play through playing through those mistakes. He can work on handles and pressure in paint through the off-season in drills but it'll just take time through in-game situations before he's more solid in pace control and playing under heavy pressure. Note, he didn't turn the ball over in the 4th, probably because he stopped thinking and just let the game come to him.

Razsan · Dec 28, 2013

dxdx said: ↑

Way to go with the cherry picking.

From a quick Google search, here's the other info you missed out:

'96: Drafted Ray Allen but traded him for Stephen Marbury.
'98: Drafted Rasho Nesterovic over Al Harrington
'99: Drafted Wally Szczerbiak over Marion, Jason Terry, Andre Miller; William Avery over Artest, James Posey and Andrei Kirilenko
'00: Got busted for the under table deal for Joe Smith, lost 4 1st round picks
'05: Drafted McCants over Granger
'05: Traded Cassell for Marko Jaric and let Sprewell walk because they were unhappy with contract negotiations.
'06: Drafted Brandon Roy and trades him for Randy Foye
'07: Drafted Brewer over Noah, Spencer Hawes, Thaddeus Young and Stuckey.

Educate yourself.
Click to expand...

If I were the type to say "Boom!!!" and make the hand motions, I would...

EnergyGuy · Dec 28, 2013

langal said: ↑

I use the Miami Heat game from 2012 to prove that Lin is a scrub. It was only 150 games ago.
Click to expand...

It was only used 20 games ago ...

DaDakota · Dec 28, 2013

pacmania said: ↑

Yup. Kevin Mchale pretty much screwed up the Timberwolves so bad they're still hurting until now. Imagine losing FOUR FIRST ROUND PICKS for an under-the-table deal for JOE SMITH.

And then capping that off by trading the star player to his beloved boston celtics. And the celtics ended up winning the championship that year.

Mchale was a man with CHARACTER and COMPETENCE issues before the Rockets hired him.
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed.

DD

Old Man Rock · Dec 28, 2013

Nubmonger said: ↑

That's not even close to true. If you understood the Triangle Offense then you would know that Fisher played a key role in spacing out the floor. He wasn't a primary focus but the system doesn't work if you have guys on the floor who aren't threats to make the open shot during the rotations. Otherwise the defense can simply collapse to the triangle and cheat on defending the open perimeter shooter.

Fisher is a career .371 3-point shooter. He had 3 seasons where he shot over .400 behind the arc, and 8 seasons where he was above .390. In addition to being a good defender.

Derek Fisher is who Patrick Beverley aspires to be.

The spacing concepts of the Triangle, by the way, are not dissimilar to how the Rockets play, and why a lot of us are confused as to why you wouldn't want Lin on the floor for ~35 minutes per game. (The "starting" vs. "bench" argument is a straw man for a half-dozen different reasons - the real debate is why Beverley averages significantly more minutes when they are both available to play, even though Lin is clearly the better player.)

With Beverley as a real offensive liability so far this season (.333 3P%), teams have picked up and are cheating him on defense. It's easier to double Harden on the perimeter if your assignment is Patrick Beverley because you can leave him open. Similarly, it's easier to double Dwight in the paint because Beverley is not a threat to drive. It's clearly evident when you compare the offense when Harden has to play with Beverley vs. when he is playing with Lin. He has to bear a much larger offensive burden, which makes him much more prone to lapse on the defense. With Lin on the floor, he knows he is free to pass early, move without the ball, and create spacing for everyone else while he commands defensive attention. Without it, he's forced to do the fancy dribbling and drive into the paint to create something on his own. That significantly increases the amount of attrition on his body over the season, because it takes more effort to push those drives, and you take a beating when you do it (yes, even Harden gets hit most of the time).

This isn't a Lin vs. Beverley issue. It's a Beverley Issue, period. Substitute Lin for anyone who can hit the 3-point shot, and you still have the exact same problem. He's fine as a backup, but he's averaging 31.5 MPG. Even taking into account Lin's unavailability, that's a ridiculously high number of minutes for a guy who is essentially playing at a bench player level. What should be happening is that Harden and Lin should both be slotted for around 35 MPG, and even if you split up their minutes so they had as little overlap as possible, that leaves just 14 minutes where only one of them is on the floor. Meaning you only need the backup guards for those 14 minutes to take the place of either Harden or Lin.

Instead what you have is Harden being ridden into the ground because he's playing next to Beverley for 20-30 MPG, and Lin is being ridden into the ground because he's playing with what feels like the ENTIRE bench (including, yes, Beverley) for the other 20-30 minutes.

The rotations and minutes make absolutely no sense. Right now the coaches are literally overplaying Beverley to the detriment of their best players.

This is almost the same issue with the Twin Towers. It doesn't matter how good Asik is, if he's not as good as Howard then your #1 goal is to maximize Howard's minutes (regardless of the lineup). Substitute Howard for Harden, and Asik for Beverley, and it's an eerily similar problem that somehow developed into an entirely different solution.

It's weird because in the other case, no one thinks that Asik makes a better forward than Jones. Asik is a better player, but he can't space the floor so he can't play the forward position. Nobody has any problem telling Asik that he needs to sit down because it's just not working. But even though everyone ostensibly agrees that Lin is a better player than Beverley for the exact same position (except maybe not as much on defense although that is exceedingly debatable given what we've seen and the defensive metrics available), for some reason saying that Beverley needs to get off the floor is tantamount to a rebellion in these parts.

Again, this is not about Lin vs. Beverley. It's about the guy not being fit to play the position for such heavy minutes. You could give half of Beverley's minutes to Brooks and I'm pretty sure you'd see the same if not better overall results, because what the team loses in defense they would more than make up for in offense (and you would probably get more defensive effort from Harden in return for taking the load off of his shoulders). You don't want the backup players on the floor that much - it means everyone else has to pick up the slack and/or you are leaving better players off the floor in exchange.

The only reason it's being forced into a Lin vs. Beverley debate is because the coaching staff (read: McHale) refuse to rotate player minutes properly, and therefore the only way you're going to get less Beverley on the floor is to replace his "starter" status with someone else (Lin) so that he stops playing over 30 MPG.
Click to expand...

Very clear and accurate assessment. It's not Lin vs Bev. It's Bev is not a starting pg and McHale doesn't get that.

EnergyGuy · Dec 28, 2013

Nubmonger said: ↑

That's not even close to true. If you understood the Triangle Offense then you would know that Fisher played a key role in spacing out the floor. He wasn't a primary focus but the system doesn't work if you have guys on the floor who aren't threats to make the open shot during the rotations. Otherwise the defense can simply collapse to the triangle and cheat on defending the open perimeter shooter.

Fisher is a career .371 3-point shooter. He had 3 seasons where he shot over .400 behind the arc, and 8 seasons where he was above .390. In addition to being a good defender.

Derek Fisher is who Patrick Beverley aspires to be.

The spacing concepts of the Triangle, by the way, are not dissimilar to how the Rockets play, and why a lot of us are confused as to why you wouldn't want Lin on the floor for ~35 minutes per game. (The "starting" vs. "bench" argument is a straw man for a half-dozen different reasons - the real debate is why Beverley averages significantly more minutes when they are both available to play, even though Lin is clearly the better player.)

With Beverley as a real offensive liability so far this season (.333 3P%), teams have picked up and are cheating him on defense. It's easier to double Harden on the perimeter if your assignment is Patrick Beverley because you can leave him open. Similarly, it's easier to double Dwight in the paint because Beverley is not a threat to drive. It's clearly evident when you compare the offense when Harden has to play with Beverley vs. when he is playing with Lin. He has to bear a much larger offensive burden, which makes him much more prone to lapse on the defense. With Lin on the floor, he knows he is free to pass early, move without the ball, and create spacing for everyone else while he commands defensive attention. Without it, he's forced to do the fancy dribbling and drive into the paint to create something on his own. That significantly increases the amount of attrition on his body over the season, because it takes more effort to push those drives, and you take a beating when you do it (yes, even Harden gets hit most of the time).

This isn't a Lin vs. Beverley issue. It's a Beverley Issue, period. Substitute Lin for anyone who can hit the 3-point shot, and you still have the exact same problem. He's fine as a backup, but he's averaging 31.5 MPG. Even taking into account Lin's unavailability, that's a ridiculously high number of minutes for a guy who is essentially playing at a bench player level. What should be happening is that Harden and Lin should both be slotted for around 35 MPG, and even if you split up their minutes so they had as little overlap as possible, that leaves just 14 minutes where only one of them is on the floor. Meaning you only need the backup guards for those 14 minutes to take the place of either Harden or Lin.

Instead what you have is Harden being ridden into the ground because he's playing next to Beverley for 20-30 MPG, and Lin is being ridden into the ground because he's playing with what feels like the ENTIRE bench (including, yes, Beverley) for the other 20-30 minutes.

The rotations and minutes make absolutely no sense. Right now the coaches are literally overplaying Beverley to the detriment of their best players.

This is almost the same issue with the Twin Towers. It doesn't matter how good Asik is, if he's not as good as Howard then your #1 goal is to maximize Howard's minutes (regardless of the lineup). Substitute Howard for Harden, and Asik for Beverley, and it's an eerily similar problem that somehow developed into an entirely different solution.

It's weird because in the other case, no one thinks that Asik makes a better forward than Jones. Asik is a better player, but he can't space the floor so he can't play the forward position. Nobody has any problem telling Asik that he needs to sit down because it's just not working. But even though everyone ostensibly agrees that Lin is a better player than Beverley for the exact same position (except maybe not as much on defense although that is exceedingly debatable given what we've seen and the defensive metrics available), for some reason saying that Beverley needs to get off the floor is tantamount to a rebellion in these parts.

Again, this is not about Lin vs. Beverley. It's about the guy not being fit to play the position for such heavy minutes. You could give half of Beverley's minutes to Brooks and I'm pretty sure you'd see the same if not better overall results, because what the team loses in defense they would more than make up for in offense (and you would probably get more defensive effort from Harden in return for taking the load off of his shoulders). You don't want the backup players on the floor that much - it means everyone else has to pick up the slack and/or you are leaving better players off the floor in exchange.

The only reason it's being forced into a Lin vs. Beverley debate is because the coaching staff (read: McHale) refuse to rotate player minutes properly, and therefore the only way you're going to get less Beverley on the floor is to replace his "starter" status with someone else (Lin) so that he stops playing over 30 MPG.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is that McHale bent over backwards to try to work out a situation for Twin Towers that was obviously not going to work, including starting Asik, proper minute staggering etc etc, but wouldn't/couldn't do the same for the Lin/Harden backcourt which has shown a lot of promise.

JeffB · Dec 28, 2013

knote32 said: ↑

I wish it really was all about Beverley, I really do.

The fact is that Kevin McHale and his staff of coaches do not feel that they can trust Jeremy Lin. He is suspect in a few areas where Patrick Beverly is not.

1. Taking care of the ball.
2. Controlling tempo in a tight game.

If we were in an intense 7 game series for a championship, would you really want Lin on the floor for 36 minutes? Or would you rather have Patrick Beverley?

To me, it is rather close, and Jeremy Lin has yet to have 1 good playoff game. Whilst Beverly has shown us that he is a knife fighter with huge nuts.

All that being said, I have and always will believe that Jeremy and James should be the starting back court for 35+ minutes a night, even If Patrick Beverly is finishing off games when things get tough.
Click to expand...

It stands out to me that Harden and Lin blended together well right after the Harden trade and before McHale has time to coach them into his system. I really think this coach doesn't understand how to develop talent. Yes, Lin is not a pure passing point. He is an aggressive, high risk scorer with a tendency toward isolation play who McHale is trying to turn into a low risk, low turnover floor general/set up man.

But in the process, the coach has Lin confused and looking over his shoulder. A short leash can harm a player's confidence and for Lin it appears to thwart his aggressiveness, without which he is useless. It is no surprised Lin played is ass off when injuries made it clear he wasn't getting pulled from the last game. Lin played loose and free. Maybe the coach should extend the leash and let the guy regain his confidence (to the extent his body allows).

EnergyGuy · Dec 28, 2013

JeffB said: ↑

It stands out to me that Harden and Lin blended together well right after the Harden trade and before McHale has time to coach them into his system. I really think this coach doesn't understand how to develop talent. Yes, Lin is not a pure passing point. He is an aggressive, high risk scorer with a tendency toward isolation play who McHale is trying to turn into a low risk, low turnover floor general/set up man.

But in the process, the coach has Lin confused and looking over his shoulder. A short leash can harm a player's confidence and for Lin it appears to thwart his aggressiveness, without which he is useless. It is no surprised Lin played is ass off when injuries made it clear he wasn't getting pulled from the last game. Lin played loose and free. Maybe the coach should extend the leash and let the guy regain his confidence (to the extent his body allows).
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Trust is two-way.

Lin + Harden can still be one of the best, if not the best, backcourt in the NBA.

In the last two games, it was Harden then Lin who stepped up to take over in the fourth quarter. What a great luxury for a team to have two guys down the stretch that can shoot the 3, iso, PnR, get to the FT line, get to the rim and make plays for their teammates. This is a luxury very few team have. Not to mention we have Parsons + Dwight on top of the backcourt. I still can't understand why McHale would want to minimize this duo.

roxxy · Dec 28, 2013

JeffB said: ↑

It stands out to me that Harden and Lin blended together well right after the Harden trade and before McHale has time to coach them into his system. I really think this coach doesn't understand how to develop talent. Yes, Lin is not a pure passing point. He is an aggressive, high risk scorer with a tendency toward isolation play who McHale is trying to turn into a low risk, low turnover floor general/set up man.

But in the process, the coach has Lin confused and looking over his shoulder. A short leash can harm a player's confidence and for Lin it appears to thwart his aggressiveness, without which he is useless. It is no surprised Lin played is ass off when injuries made it clear he wasn't getting pulled from the last game. Lin played loose and free. Maybe the coach should extend the leash and let the guy regain his confidence (to the extent his body allows).
Click to expand...

Well said. One of McHale's issues with developing talent is that he doesn't know how to integrate two high scoring guards. His entire system is predicated with the offense running through the two spot. He can't or refuses to develop a system where the offense runs through both the one and two spot allowing Harden to play more D and Lin to play his style.

Hrock · Dec 28, 2013

JeffB said: ↑

It stands out to me that Harden and Lin blended together well right after the Harden trade and before McHale has time to coach them into his system. I really think this coach doesn't understand how to develop talent. Yes, Lin is not a pure passing point. He is an aggressive, high risk scorer with a tendency toward isolation play who McHale is trying to turn into a low risk, low turnover floor general/set up man.

But in the process, the coach has Lin confused and looking over his shoulder. A short leash can harm a player's confidence and for Lin it appears to thwart his aggressiveness, without which he is useless. It is no surprised Lin played is ass off when injuries made it clear he wasn't getting pulled from the last game. Lin played loose and free. Maybe the coach should extend the leash and let the guy regain his confidence (to the extent his body allows).
Click to expand...

Remember the first two or three games with Harden and Lin playing together? Harden dropped like 40+ pts and Lin almost had a triple double? There was no system and both were playing unselfishly. Then it's like Lin played a couple bad games and all of a sudden he had a short leash, he clearly was afraid to screw up in front of the coaching staff. It didn't help that he clearly was still recovering from the leg injury and didn't start performing until post All-star break. I just thought it was interesting how good Lin and Harden looked playing together and people were writing articles how they could be "The deadliest back-court duo."

Hrock · Dec 28, 2013

I will add to my comment above that Lin did play poorly, and that wasn't the coaching staff's fault. But it sure didn't help how the staff clearly showed they didn't want him playing thorugh mistakes, benched him over Beverly instead of letting him play through it. Remember his confessional at that church? I really hate the preachy god stuff, but he made note that the staff clearly didn't have a lot of confidence in him. The leash on him was rediculous considering he was a rookie starter.

DaDakota · Dec 28, 2013

Look it also involves turnovers, both Lin and Harden are highly susceptible to turning it over, so you minimize one of them, and it is not going to be Harden.

It is the one thing that is holding Lin back, his casualness with the passes - if he could tigthen that up a bit more he would be very reliable - but I am not sure McHale will ever trust him.

I really think McHale will hold this team back in the end, he is clueless out there.

DD

EnergyGuy · Dec 28, 2013

Both McHale and Sampson benched Lin in favour of ...

...

Toney Douglas, who couldn't even get off the floor in New York (Tinman rant coming) with 3 PGs injured, hence the reason Lin got off the bench against New Jersey Nets at the start of Linsanity.

If I was Lin, I would be looking back over my shoulder thinking, what does my coach think of my game when Damian Lillard did most of the damage against Toney Douglas yet the coach wants to go with him in the 4th quarter instead of me. Remember this was at a time when Douglas was shooting something like 38% FG and 20% from 3s.

It's much like the Clutchfans board. The coaches made a call, and they need to continue to back their stance as opposed to acknowledge they probably were wrong.

And don't exclude the possibility that this all started because McHale wasn't happy Morey let go of Dragic (didn't want the 4th year player option) and got Lin instead. Probably didn't have anything to do with Lin initially.

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Either start Lin, or bring in a new starting PG, Bev ain't cuttin' it.

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Either start Lin, or bring in a new starting PG, Bev ain't cuttin' it.

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