[RELIGION] Rob Bell vs. Team Hell

Sorry if it sounded vague, actually when I post from work I rarely have time to think, so alot of times I am shooting from the hip and if I post a verse it is the one that immediately comes to mind. I don't do research or think through things alot during the day, I'm home now so I will try not to be vague at all.

Not a good guess but you don't know me, I don't do as much as you might think, I love to do what I do though, I wasn't taught too much doctrine as my formal training is reading the bible. I think everything I preach can be understood by children and adults so it isn't what you would call heavy doctrine. At least all the children give me that feedback. (adults give less)

I don't have a denomination, I read the words of Jesus and do them. That keeps it simple for me.

Let me be clear I am not in the debate on hell, nor am I in the debate on Rob Bell, I can understand why there is this conflict though.

There are former crack addicts, prostitutes, drunkards, abused and the like in our church, all of them have received love, forgiveness and life in Jesus.
As I sat with two sisters tonight while their mother passed away I wasn't checking out doctrine or thinking about this thread. My wife and I hugged them both and God comforted them. One sister had known us years ago she came to us with her mind broken and life ruined, God healed her and she has worked steady ever since. She called us over and we had the joy of meeting her family in a time of need.

You may think I should clarify my doctrine but if we do the work Jesus gives to each of us in His Spirit's power we will know if our doctrine is from man or God.

Always check the fruit.

First, that wasn't a parable. And there is no interpretation, Jesus asked him to sell all, give to the poor and follow Him. The man went away because he had alot of possessions.

That doesn't need an explanation at all. Do you think Jesus was picking on one person? Let me go ahead then and interpret it this way, if you have alot of possessions and others have needs, just remember Jesus wasn't just making a point to that guy because he had an issue, it was for all of us who want to inherit eternal life.

If you have wealth be rich towards God. Lay up treasure in heaven not on earth, sell your houses and lands and distribute to those in the church who lack so there is an equality, lend to him who asks of you, and to him who needs your coat give him your shirt also, for if any man does not forsake all that he hath he cannot be Jesus disciple. - that's just a starter off the top of my head.

Faith sets us free to live as Jesus lived trusting in Him not money or possessions. Don't give thought to material things God knows how to provide for you.

So if you are like the rich young ruler and you want to follow Jesus sell what you have give it away and follow Jesus. You will find that in losing your life for Him you will find it.

So for all the affluent Christians here in North America who really care about Jesus and the poor, keep it simple and do what Jesus did. Who becme poor so that others could be rich.

As a pastor I think being a Christian is more important than being a pastor, love, serve, obey, trust Jesus. Jesus is simple. If you have possessions give, if you are hurt forgive, if you are thinking of your own, humble yourself and put Jesus words ahead of your feelings. Do what he did, that takes faith.

You don't need to be perfect to believe what Jesus said, all it takes is a tiny bit of faith. If I tried to do good things I would have accomplished nothing, but if I am filled with love, Jesus does miracles. I have seen Jesus do hundreds of miracles in lives.

I care not about translations, I read the NLT alot because I am old, I read the KJV alot because when I started my Christian life I memorized alot of it.
I don't care about the translation, it is the message that counts.

To be condemned means what it means, tried, found guilty, sentenced.
going to hell? Jesus just said his judgment will be just, so the condemnation will be just. I can't be more clear, injustice is wrong and God hates it. Those who have done good will not be judge the same as those who have done evil, please simply read the scripture you posted.

I have no problem with everlasting damnation, judgment, or the words depart from me into the place prepared for the devil.

I wouldn't serve a God who wouldn't punish me for the things I used to do.
I was forgiven for many sins and I love God alot for that.

It's that simple for me.

Jesus said nothing about judgment on the cross. He offered himself for our sins, He offered mercy, even to those who nailed him there.

Mercy can only be offered to those who are guilty, if the whole world would believe this they would all turn to Jesus for forgiveness and he would turn not one away.

But they don't believe. Man is so full of pride he will believe he is innocent, worthy of eternal life thus making Jesus suffering and death senseless.

That is the real issue, men are full and puffed up with pride, that is why they don't sell their possessions they really think they deserve them more than others. That is why they lie and steal, they think they are good because they compare themselves with each other instead of looking to Jesus.

Jesus said to love your neighbor as much as yourself, then this is what Christians do in practice. They love their neighbors just as much as themselves the proof is in the lifestyle.

Pride has always been man's sin. Just like the story of the garden of eden- God told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent told them they wouldn't die.

Nothing has changed- God says if you do this you will die, somebody comes along and says you won't die.

It means to trust Him.

If I read Bell's book I will problably like the book, to be honest, I don't read many books other than the bible, I love the words in red, you just can't beat Jesus as an author.

I understand the love behind justice and punishment- and I can see the difference in the way man sees sin and God sees sin.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Well that might be vague, I have alot to do tonight can't spend much time with you but if you really want to know my opinion on eternal punishment email me and I will kindly reply with verse and comment.

BTW- turn the other cheek, repent, seek the lowest seat, be the servant of all, sin no more- this is all grace... Jesus love filling our hearts

For we rejoice in the troubles of life because the hardest times help us become patient like Jesus, and patience produces good character which gives us hope because the love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

If you see a brother in need and you do not help him how can you say you have faith, if you tell him have a good day and see you later but you don't provide for him when you can, is that any faith at all?

Let us do what Jesus said and don't just be a person who hears and then goes on doing nothing.

 

rhester as usual I liked your post. From what little I've read of the book so far, there is plenty of words by your favorite author Jesus in it. But it's presented in ways that may have been innocently overlooked before.

I'd read the passages Bell talks about in the first chapter dozens of times, but never really thought of them the way they are described in Bell's book. It was really cool to gain a fresh perspective.

I understand that you aren't in the debate on Hell, or Bell right now. I just thought I'd share.

 

You’re right that it’s not a parable, but it’s clearly not telling every Christian to “sell everything you have and give to the poor”. There are lots of Christians in the Bible who didn’t sell everything they had to give it all to the poor, so clearly it isn’t saying that. Some did, but many did not. Why the difference? That’s a longer answer question, but the basic point here is that you have to read this passage, and every other passage for that matter, in context with the rest of the Bible. You can’t take one part out of context and say that it’s making a universal statement. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 10:17-25&version=NIV

On translations, if you’re reading for your own pleasure then read whatever you like, but if you’re trying to communicate with other people then please use a translation that people will understand.

Well, to be frank, this is why no one should listen to anything you have to say about the Bible. At best what you’re saying here shows that you don’t understand forgiveness, and at worst it amounts to a rejection of Jesus. There is so much wrong with what you’ve said here it’s hard to know where to start. A person doesn’t become perfect when they become a Christian, and if you believe you’re perfect then that’s a whole other problem. If you want to be punished for your sins then remember that a) you are still a sinner, and b) the wages of sin is death. If you want to serve God then you have to accept, and offer, forgiveness and love, not judgmentalism.

Strictly speaking a Christian is no longer subject to the law. His or her relationship with God is governed by the New Covenant that Jesus established. See Romans 3 and 6, or better yet read all of Romans. I’m shocked that you don’t understand this, but at the same time I’ve seen this many times before, and this is exactly what Bell is talking about when he talks about churches and people who have “lost the plot”.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 6&version=NIV

Not only did Jesus say “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing,” but he also turned to the criminal/sinner next to him and said “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus said a whole lot about judgment on the cross.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 23&version=NIV

If anyone is interested in essentially a summary of the message of the New Testament then read Romans, and I would say read Romans 1-6 most carefully. All the basics are there, and if you didn’t already know you’ll be shocked at how different the real message is from the one taught by those who have “lost the plot”. Read Love Wins as well.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NIV

 

Which is one point Bell makes very well in his book. Jesus didn't tell the man next to him that the guy had to accept Christ as the lord and savior, and realize that he died for everyone's sins, or be baptized in order to make to "heaven". The guy next to him merely said that he wanted to be there with Jesus and Jesus told him he would be.

Often the modern church dogma though is that someone has to say that special prayer and accept Jesus into their heart in order to be "saved".

But in the case you mentioned that isn't what Jesus did at all.

 

There are lots of very interesting and challenging questions that Bell opens up with that. What does it mean to accept Jesus? Is it enough to accept God, as John 5:24 above seems to suggest? Is it something that has to be verbalized, or a decision you have to make in your heart? What does one have to know about God to accept him? Does everyone instinctively know about him, even if not by name, as Romans 1:18-20 suggests? Does Jesus’ sacrifice eventually cover all people no matter what? Did he die once for all? I also thought Bell's comments on hell on earth were quite good.

 

Grizzled, have you made any progress with the German authorities? I am eagerly awaiting your update.

 

Grizzled, I could care less if anyone sells all they have and give it to the poor, none of my business, if you think I mean that 'works' or 'good deeds' some how merit anything, they don't, that's what I would call filthy rags, self righteousness,

you can only be forgiven for doing nothing, it is all by the grace of Jesus through faith,

what I said was that faith and love eats up what Jesus said to do, I find freedom in my love for Jesus... I love him with all my heart,

I am not perfect, I screw up alot, anyone trying to be perfect is just a hypocrite or very self righteous,

but I can't contain the love in my heart, Jesus put it there and I don't apologize for it'

you have great doctrine..whoopy do

I personally don't care if anyone listens to me.

Jesus loves me and I love Jesus and I love people. And I don't care about accumulating money, I like to give it as Jesus directs.

So again, to all those who want to follow Jesus, forsake your self, give to the poor,

I don't care for those who talk a good game but don't love others. That is hypocritical

I am simple in my view of Christianity, let Jesus words direct your life

So if you are like the rich young ruler, listen to what Jesus said.

Not works to earn salvation, that is heresy

Out of the power of His grace, that is love

 

Its not clear to me how the notion of Heaven/Hell matches with "perfect justice". When I think of perfect justice, I think of the rewards being in perfect proportion to the deed, and likewise the punishment being in perfect proportion to the misdeed. But consider Hell. I am not well-versed in the Bible, but my understanding is that if people (who are all sinners) do not repent and accept Jesus as their savior then they are doomed to Hell for eternity. How could a mere human lifetime of sin justify an eternity of punishment? And if even the most virtuous of people are considered sinners, how is it "perfect justice" if they are doomed to eternal punishment simply because they aren't Christian?

This is why I don't think we can discern God's true character until we decide to either throw away the concept of Heaven/Hell as it is described or settle on a sensible interpretation.

 

Except that isn't what the bible always says. Bell Points out some of the many different ways that Jesus and the bible say people can be saved. In fact in Paul's first letter to Timothy chapter 2 he tells Timothy that women "will be saved through child bearing".

In Luke 19 Zacchaeus tells Jesus, "Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

Jesus responds by saying "Today salvation has come to this house."

So in that case Jesus himself said that the Zacchaeus' works brought him salvation.

In Mathew 6 Jesus is teaching his disciples how to pray and he says that if they forgive others, then God will forgive them, and if they don't forgive others then God won't forgive them.

There are dozens of other stories of different ways that Jesus and the bible tells people they will be saved.

 

1. We all bring our own bias to reading the Bible...as with reading ANYTHING. Honestly, what do we ever read that isn't clouded by our own preconceived notions, particularly on topics as weighty as God? The move to non-denominational churches (though i'm part of one) has been interesting, but my least favorite part of that movement is the notion of, "we're just reading the Bible," as if it's crystal clear...as if it's an operator's manual or instruction guide. It seems to me believers and non-believers alike want to take this very complicated, often frustrating, narrative and turn it into a science text or a rule book or an operator's manual...and it just doesn't lend itself to that. I'm also not interested in throwing out all the different interpretations...I can learn from how St. Patrick lived; the fact that St. Francis became convinced that Jesus really MEANT those things he said that were uncomfortable -- like sell your possessions and give to the poor; and the bazillion other interpretations of tons of other pieces of scipture. I think it's important to examine how all sorts of people have interpreted it...and to consider the context that it was written/spoken within, historically. And not just how they READ the text..but how they LIVED in response to Jesus.

2. With respect to the rich man whom Jesus told he should sell all his possessions. My bias is that I'm tired of the Church telling believers that Jesus never really meant those things. Over and over again Jesus talks of possessions and money and treasure...he spends an inordinate amount of time on that. We gloss it over insisting it's metaphor. It's ridiculously challenging to believe that Jesus calls us to something else...ridiculously challenging. I'm convinced of it, though. And that makes me an utter hypocrite, because i'm not there. I still feel the pull of finding "safety" in things/money instead of faith in God and radical love. I still "worry about tomorrow" when Jesus insists we should stop that and live in the day. "Give us THIS DAY our daily bread..." I would like to live that way...I fall short. I NEED God to be as merciful as I believe Him to be. Which reminds me of my favorite poem: http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/hymntogod.php

3. With respect to Zacchaeus...is it the ACT of making amends to those he cheated that brought salvation? As far as I can tell, when Jesus says that "today, salvation has come to this house," Z is still just talking about making it right...he hasn't done it just yet. It seems to me it's the change inside him that brings the good fruit...that signify salvation. Similarly, I think that the capacity to forgive is what brings salvation..the willingness to do so. Or better said, maybe that the change of heart that brings about the willingness to forgive is a mark of salvation. But that's just my take on it. Complete with my own bias.

 

I'll put forward something to consider with respect to that passage. Maybe Jesus was referring to his change in heart and not specifically the deeds. Maybe the deeds flowed from a genuine change of heart, and that change was what Jesus was recognising. Have a look at 1 Cor. 13 as well. What do you think? (What page in Bell’s book is that reference on btw?)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 cor 13&version=NIV

 

ha exactly what I just posted, except you probably said it more succinctly.

 

I agree with almost all that you've said here especially about people thinking the bible is a science book, manual or list of rules. I also agree with you about Zacch and the salvation coming to him because of a change inside. I think with almost all the different ways that Jesus tells people they are saved or will find paradise etc. It's about change inside.

But even that is slightly different than the "sinner's prayer" version of salvation I was brought up with.

I also think that many of the different ways that Jesus tells people they are saved has to do with who they are as individuals. To the rich he tells them to get rid of possessions, to others he tells them that it is their faith that saves them, and others he tells them it is forgiving others. I think in each case he may be addressing certain weaknesses that are specific to that person. That's my way of re-examining right now based on my own limited knowledge of the topic and trying to do more study, and reading Rob Bell's book.

I'm sure that as I read more, study more, live more, etc. I'll tweak and change it many times over... hopefully in a growth process.

But I will say that the first two chapters of the book I've read so far have already helped that growth process for now.

 

No Det No.

Bad boy

just leave this thread and please dont return.

If you have an issue with Grizzled, take it to email.

 

Absolutely. There is a frightening tendency in large groups of the Church in the US that seem to reduce salvation down to saying the right/magic words just in time. I don't see authority for that in the words/life of Christ or what I understand of the early Church.

 

The example of Zacchaeus was on pg. 14 of Bell's book(if the page numbering system on the kindle is accurate. I've never checked.) The pages around there talk about all of the different ways that the bible mentions people being saved.

It of course isn't trying to be a manual of how to be saved and is in fact using all of these different examples to show that. He starts out by sarcastically asking that if people are confused on how to be saved they should read the bible because like all good stories it will clear it up for them. He then writes about all the varied ways the bible talks about salvation.

I fear that I've confused the way people may look at my stance on salvation by playing along as if I'm buying into the bible tells us one particular way to do things, by using those passages to debate that way. I was merely trying to point out that if people are going to look at the bible in that manner then it doesn't seem to fair to label something as heresy when it is also part of Jesus' message just like the "sinner's prayer" version of salvation.

I think from all the different examples of how people reach salvation, the commonality is people taking action to show love, forgiveness, improve spiritual or ethical weaknesses etc. I understand why it might look like I was choosing one act that could lead to salvation over another.

As far as 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, I think that's pretty close to a one chapter summary of Jesus message. I hesitate to give it the importance it probably deserves because I've come to think of it as the wedding passage, because I hear it read at weddings so much, that it's gotten on my nerves, and almost seems trite. But when I read it, and take it at face value rather than let imposed context lessen it for me, that sums up what I believe Jesus message is pretty well.

 

The passage about women being saved through childbirth is a little more challenging, however. Childbirth isn’t exactly a work, because it’s involuntary, but how is it connected to salvation? I think I’ll sign out for now and do some reading. Reading glasses on!

 

The threat of hell hangs over the heads of the offspring, and ensures the Christian gene is passed down.

I think many people who didn't grow up in a religious household or a church environment would be shocked to find out how early the subject of Hell is introduced into the minds of impressionable young children.

I for one remember being scared to death of going to Hell many times throughout my childhood. I think that fear consumed me at points, especially when it was brought up in Church by a pastor. Notice how when a pastor mentions hell in a sermon, it is always in a threatening manner.

One fine day when I was able to use reason and logic, it became evident that Hell cannot exist.

I wonder how many Christians today were conditioned to believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to save yourself from burning in hell for eternity, rather than being taught the teachings of the Christ as a moral guidebook for personal fulfillment, and Christ is a way of life, not "fire insurance".

I believe Hell is a way of keeping people locked down with fear. People usually behave irrationally and out of self-interest when confronted with fear. So basically the threat of hell invokes in some Christians that "warning alarm" which makes them seek to save their own soul, even though Jesus Christ himself said "He who will seek to save his life shall lose it". Seems like a contradiction there. Notice also that Jesus himself rarely mentioned Hell in the Gospel.

The cult mentality was very prevalent in my fundamentalist upbringing. The first sign that you may be in a cult is if your leader is exalting himself as some sort of "prophet" or "voice of God", basically anything that puts him in a special position above everyone else. Then he will go about destroying the ego of the congregation. The control sets in, and human nature takes over. Power corrupts, and hundreds of people burn to death in a locked building, or drink the kool-aid.

"Hell is other people"

 

It is chapter 14 in the book as well, and indeed I think there is a point to be made about the deed itself as well. From a changed heart flows good deeds, so the deed is an important part as well. Salvation isn't just a changed heart, and it isn't just good deeds. It's both.

I'd don't think you're being confusing about your position on salvation, btw. I think we're just having a good, open, discussion. You're putting out things to think about, and others are responding and chipping in their 2 cents as well, and it's all making me think, which is a good thing. Like, for example, how is childbirth connected to salvation, and what does that say about salvation? Hmmmm.

 

I think this goes the other way, too. I think people who grew up in a "Fundamentalist" household tend to extrapolate that out to everyone who grew up in what would otherwise be call a "church environment" or a home where Christians are raising children. I don't think that framework is the typical framework among Christians. The mainline denominations just aren't nearly as focused on that as some other backgrounds are.

I did share here before that my older boy went to a camp (when he was 9) where some 20 year old kid, who was his counselor, scared the crap out of him about Hell. I do not like Jesus sold as fire insurance...I think that cheapens the Gospel.