Substance yes, but also the ability of player and team to be more effective with each other and raise each others (in a game, over season, multiple seasons) level matters too. That is why most of us like the team sport of basketball and do not see it as a collection of individuals sport--and why the characteristics I mentioned before do matter.
Who's next? You didn't even address the post in its entirety. You act as if Payton chased the media down just to belittle Wade. That's a gross exaggeration of the what actually happened. Why can't he answer and give his opinion when given the opportunity? You keep acting like Payton just called Wade's mom a w**** or something along those lines when in reality he just gave his opinion which is based on FACT, not on conjecture.
look i don't disagree with what he said about kobe. i agree 100% with what he said about kobe. i don't think this thread should be about that. we all agree kobe is one of the hardest working players in the history of the sport. let's get that out of the way. now i disagree with what he said about wade. he said wade doesn't know how to be humble. that's false. he's one of the most humble superstars in the game (he kept complimenting shaq during their years together when wade was the better player). he said if kobe loses a game, kobe would be at the gym the next day. he said HE DOESN'T KNOW that with wade. hell, you spent a year with him, if you don't know, don't speak up. thirdly, wade is more of a show player. that's where i disagree completely. if anything, wade is more of the throwback type. he attacks the basket like a young jordan did; he plays through injuries; he battled back from an injury where everyone said he might not regain his old self... and he hasn't complained much about the lack of help (or compared to his other counterparts). and he has given props to other players (kobe, lebron...) and wade isn't one of my top 15 favorite players. you have never seen me defend wade until now. i just think a lot of this talk just suddenly starts this summer is just weird. but hey it makes for a good discussion.
I'm not confusing anything for a popularity contest. You asked who cares about who's more likable. I said I care about that when choosing which players to root for. I actually do like Gary Payton. I was a fan of his up until he joined the Lakers. Now that he's retired, I have gone back to liking him. I didn't say his opinion means nothing. I was saying that it's ridiculous to imply: 1) Wade got to where he is without working hard, 2) Kobe undeniably has the greatest work ethic, and 3) young players don't work as hard as guys from GP's generation did. Lebron being better than Kobe has nothing to do with likability. It has to do with him putting up better stats while carrying an inferior supporting cast to 60+ wins for multiple seasons. If you think the media isn't absolutely in love with Kobe as well, you're out of your mind.
Very well said. It is a free country and GP was a great basketball player who played with both of them, but I think one has to remember the mouth it is coming from. I have to admit it is really funny to hear GP talking about being "humble", and then directing it Kobe Bryant. I kind of think GP needs to read a Webster's dictionary about what being "humble" means--it isn't being so mad at losing or so indigent about your perceived underperforming/underworking teammates that you go put in 24 strait hours in the gym by yourself so you straiten out your jump shot. Tiger Woods had a great work ethic too--but not because he is "humble". I would think it more likely to hear from their mouths something like "It is hard to be humble when you are as great as I am". GP has always been a total punk. Great player, and I assume a great work ethic, but alienating punk. That is what I think he sees more of Kobe Bryant in him than Wade, certainly not "being humble" by any standard definition of the term.
GP's old school he doesn't sugarcoat anything. And the dude really has no reason to talk trash about Wade. If he says Wade doesn't work as hard as Kobe, I believe him. Not a real big deal IMO, I doubt there's anybody that's as fanatical about basketball as Kobe.
Actually no. I never implied any one not as obsessed with improving at basketball as Kobe is will somehow be cheating the game, themselves or the fans. That may be true but I never stated nor implied that. Just saying I agree with GP. Wade has the talent and that shone through in the Heat playoff run to the title and it shows each and every season he is on the court but if a player who's played with him says his work ethic could be better than I'll believe said player. And all the stuff about Wade wouldnt have been able to win a title if he had just an average or ok work ethic is hogwash imho. Shaq is none for a less than tremendous work ethic but he had(has) immense talent and that trumped everything else when he got on the court. LBJ and Wade may not have Kobe or Jordan work ethic but both can(did in Wade's case) win titles without practicing 24/7. Nothing wrong with that but I get GP's point about Wade and don't take it as hating.
LOL Kobe and humble in the same sentence? Minds blown. Does not compute. It's just a disguised whine from Gary Payton, why didn't I thought of this earlier in my career. Finally we are talking about a HOF guy decided to join the Lakers with Malone to win his ring. No credibility on his criticism at all.
Nice to hear that you at least concede that Kobe is in all probability a harder worker. As for Payton's "I don't know if Wade is the same way" quote, it doesn't mean that he doesn't know what Wade does after a loss. It's more of an implication that he doubts that Wade reacts the same way Kobe does, which is hit the gym harder and with more purpose. As for the show player label, I believe that Payton meant that Wade loves the stage more and likes to give a performance. Not necessarily playing each possession to win the game, instead playing each possession to entertain the fans. I have to admit that I can see that in Wade. Maybe that wasn't the case when Riley and Shaq were in town, but things have certainly changed with Spoelstra and his band of misfit teammates in recent years. I'm actually very sure that Wade does not value winning as much as Kobe does, because at the end of the day, very few do. I'd like to add that at the end of Payton's interview he mentions that it's up to the Big 3 to prove that they belong with the greats, implying that he believes that it's possible. I don't think he has any ill will towards them, he was just answering questions. This wasn't a "I would never do this, with hindsight" ala MJ answer. It was a more honest and candid appraisal of Wade and his behavior as opposed to Kobe's. PS Wade is a great player and he probably is in my top 5 favorite players. I just feel that Payton said nothing wrong hence my persistence in this thread.
Jordan took a year off from basketball and came back and still dominated. Just because GP said wade didnt practice as hard as kobe doesn't mean he is knocking wade as a player, and it also doesn't mean wade is worse than kobe. Jason Otter works extremely hard at basketball but he can't even play professionally so should we look up to him now for his work ethic? No, in the end its about what you do on the court and wade has proved he has what it takes to win
or maybe he is saying that wade has more natural talent, because with less work he won a ring, and kobe has to work harder to get a ring? :grin:
I'm pretty sure Kobe has a high work ethic, but I don't know about this "highest in the league" nonsense. Just because other guys don't receive the pub that he does doesn't mean they don't work just as hard. Have Rocket fans forgot about the center on their team that works so hard that doctors and coaches have to tell him to get off the court? I'm sure there are players on other teams who don't have all their hard work getting consisent pub.
Where is this well documented? Links? I would love to see LeBron or Wade say Kobe inspired them to work harder.
I've only ever heard about it from Bill Simmons. But I guess to some people, any crap that he throws out as fact is "well documented."
some players get the pub: kobe, KG, gilbert arenas... b/c they breathe basketball. and i do believe those guys work hard. but others don't get the pub but more than likely work just as hard: yao, lebron, wade, tim duncan, derrick rose, kevin durant, dwight howard... some players just have reputation b/c they put it out there. kobe, from the beginning of his career, was a loner and he didn't do much except play basketball. so that point was beaten to the head from the get-go that he breathes and lives basketball. the same way with gilbert arenas: who would play street ball during the offseason b/c he loves bball so much. the same way with kevin garnett and his "passion and intensity." that's why i believe there are many other superstars who work just as hard, but they just don't put it out there.
here is a link that said lebron was the LEADER of the redeem team: http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,1683827951_1826536,00.html LeBron James, often named the vocal leader of the United States stated in a feature with TIME magazine: "It's the gold, or it's failure for lebron to be as good as he was at age 18, with the body that he had, he has to be one of the hardest workers in the history of the game.
Saying someone does not work as hard to win as Kobe is like saying someone is not as rich as Bill Gates. Doesn't really say much.
That wasn't a blast by Gary Payton at all. This article has been posted before but I doubt Lebron James was the leader of the Redeem Team. "From Team USA coach Mike Krzyzewski to managing director Jerry Colangelo to NBA elders, the issue of James’ immaturity and downright disrespectfulness had become a consuming topic on the march to the Olympics. The course of history could’ve changed dramatically, because there was a real risk that James wouldn’t be brought to Beijing based on fears his monumental talents weren’t worth the daily grind of dealing with him. When the mandate had been to gather these immense egos and get the NBA’s greatest players to fit into a program, no one had a more difficult time meshing into the framework than James. Other players made it a point to learn the names of staffers and modestly go about their business without barking orders and brash demands. No one could stand James as a 19-year-old in the 2004 Athens Olympics, nor the 2006 World Championships. Officials feared James could become the instigator of everything they wanted to rid themselves for the ’08 Olympics. For as gifted as James was, Krzyzewski and Colangelo subscribed to a belief that with Kobe Bryant(notes) joining the national team in 2007, they could win a gold medal in ’08 with or without LeBron James. Behind the scenes, officials had taken to calling James’ inner circle, “The Enablers.” No one ever told him to grow up. No one ever challenged him. And yet, James was still a powerful pull for his teammates, and everyone had to agree they could no longer let his bossy and belittling act go unchecked. These weren’t the Cleveland Cavaliers, and Team USA wasn’t beholden to him." http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AjDnXa.S2oUeIT2GgsP.dMi8vLYF?slug=aw-heatfreeagency071610
