1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Is Kobe Dirty? Yes. SI Article

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by DFWRocket, May 8, 2009.

  1. DFWRocket

    DFWRocket Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2000
    Messages:
    4,485
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Thought this was a good read & didn't see it posted.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/05/08/kobe/index.html?bcnn=yes


    Is Kobe Bryant a dirty player?

    Yes, yes he is.

    There, how that's for instant gratification? Lots of columns would require you to plow through 800 to 1,000 words before revealing their conclusion, offering up all sorts of on-one-hands and on-the-other-hands in the meantime, holding the fundamental question at arm's length to ponder and study from several angles, leading to something namby-pamby and utterly unsatisfying.

    Not here. I'm coming with the good stuff right up top: Kobe Bryant is a dirty player.

    Not definitive enough for you? OK, then let the record show that Kobe Bean Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers is the eighth most dirty player in the NBA. Except for occasional periods when he is its 23rd most dirty player, usually during quirks in the regular season schedule during which Bruce Bowen's, Kenyon Martin's, Raja Bell's, Jamaal Magloire's, James Posey's, Matt Barnes', Joel Przybilla's and Andres Nocioni's teams are all facing each other and, on fresh antics alone, they have to be counted two or three times each.

    Hmm. Maybe that's too specific, since this is all rather difficult to prove, proof being the second high hurdle after reaching some sort of consensus on the definition of the allegation. No, not the "is" part of the question -- that's been done. Just what constitutes dirty, though, in NBA terms, is open to myriad interpretations.

    Is it dirty to bend rules or do you need to actually break them? Does being dirty require that you inflict some sort of physical pain on an opponent or is it enough to hold a guy's jersey or propel yourself backward in a flop more outrageous than any of Eddie Murphy's last three?

    If a defender nudges his knee into the thigh of the ball handler with the intent and result of having that man's knee bump into the ball to create a turnover, is that dirty?

    C'mon, elbows to the throat, of the sort Bryant splayed back at Ron Artest on Wednesday night in the fourth quarter of Game 2, Lakers-Rockets, are easy: Dirty, with a capital D. What about the small stuff, though, the pokes and gouges and whacks that go largely unseen? Not nearly as traumatic, and definitely not as frequently replayed and reviewed. Yet if you're the poke-ee, the gouge-ee or the whack-ee, those things can be like water torture, with a cumulative effect that leads to some incident much worse and, given the way referees often spot the retaliator but not the instigator, the wrong guy getting stuck with that "dirty" label.

    So how much of being dirty requires one also to be sneaky? Is dirty another way of saying "physical in the first degree," in which there is definite intent -- malice aforethought, as it were -- brought to what, in the flow of a basketball game, really is a series of ever-changing, exhausting moments of passion and exertion? Let's put it this way: What's dirtier? Throwing an elbow to get a guy off your back as you both grab at a rebound, or stepping underneath a jump shooter so he lands on your size 15? Jabbing a quick rabbit punch at someone who brushes by while cutting through the lane, or reminding yourself to do it in the second half when the same situation arises?

    Funny, but someone who admits to being a dirty player or at least to committing a dirty play somehow doesn't seem as dirty as someone who does it yet claims to be clean. As in Derek Fisher laying out Luis Scola near the end of the third quarter Wednesday. Fisher made no attempt to hide his guilt. No subterfuge, no camouflage, no alibis. He even dabbed openly at the blood oozing from his scalp after that collision-to-make-Al Davis proud, while awaiting his penalty. Part of being dirty is trying to get away with something illicit or untoward, with the idea of staying in a game to eventually do something equally sinister, if needed.

    So, was Bryant's elbow on Artest as dirty as Dwight Howard's elbow on Samuel Dalembert in the Orlando-Philadelphia series? The NBA clearly didn't think so because the Lakers star was assessed a flagrant 1 foul (in retrospect, since the game crew didn't even call a foul) while Howard had to sit out a one-game suspension. How do those compare to Rajon Rondo's arm-whip of Kirk Hinrich into the scorer's table in Game 6 of Boston-Chicago, which was classified as a flagrant 1?

    Martin's forearm shove that sent Dirk Nowitzki sprawling in the Denver-Dallas opener was about as dirty as dirty gets -- in this case, we're applying Justice Potter Stewart's 1964 definition of obscene ("I know it when I see it."). Maybe, in that vein, we can go by a variation on Forrest Gump: Dirty is as dirty does. Judge players by what they do, when it comes to such chicanery and mini-mayhem. If Bowen or Bell or Nocioni goes an entire game without incident, well, then he isn't dirty, at least for a night. If Boy Scout Brandon Roy puts a knee into someone's solar plexus and a smirk suggests it wasn't an accident, then that's dirty. Easy. Just where on his anatomy, for instance, did Ray Allen recently hit Anderson Varejao?

    Repeat offenses make this easy, too. And let's be clear, Bryant is a serial transgressor. He has been accused constantly of little nasties in his physical contact with opponents, as payback or otherwise. He has been caught on video numerous times and even held accountable by the league on more than a few occasions:

    -- In April 2000, Bryant received a one-game suspension for retaliating and throwing a punch at New York Knicks guard Chris Childs.

    -- Bryant got suspended for two games in March 2002 after throwing a punch at Indiana's Reggie Miller at the end of a Lakers-Pacers game.

    -- In December 2005, an elbow to Memphis swingman Mike Miller's throat cost Bryant another two games to league sanction.

    -- Within the first six weeks of the 2006-07 season, Bryant was suspended twice (one game each) for flailing his shooting arm into the faces of San Antonio's Manu Ginobili and Minnesota's Marko Jaric. Despite his protests to the contrary, the NBA sheriffs saw no natural follow-through in that move, which looked like a more aggressive version of a jump shooter creating contact with his body. Bryant's maneuver seemed designed to punish rather than manufacture free throws.

    That last stretch, capped in March 2007 when Bryant was assessed a flagrant 1 foul for elbowing Philadelphia's Kyle Korver in the jaw, led to the greatest confluence of "Is Kobe dirty?" debates in his career. Lakers coach Phil Jackson accused the NBA of conducting a "vendetta" and a "witch hunt" against his scoring star, and Bryant reacted angrily to the conjecture. "It's insulting," he told reporters then. "I don't need to be a dirty player. That's just ridiculous. I'm not a dirty player -- never have been, never will be."

    Still, Bryant is a special case as a Hall of Fame-worthy performer, one of the NBA's top two or three talents, dragging around allegations of dirty play. This stuff isn't just measured on a 1-to-10 scale, with squeaky clean at one end and nefarious at the other. Even a graph with players plotted in the various quadrants -- one axis representing clean-dirty, the other axis capturing the more tricky spectrum of soft-tough -- isn't sufficient. There's a third dimension required, allowing for the range between truly great players and those who might only be able to stay employed in the league by deploying a dirty bag of tricks. There's Karl Malone and there's Bill Laimbeer. And undoubtedly, there are guys who never even had Laimbeer's abilities and smarts but held roster spots at least for a while as irritants and punishers.

    The NBA isn't the NHL, but to me there is a difference between acting the thug and being Bobby Orr. Arguably hockey's greatest player ever and absolutely full-service, Orr was the ultimate skills guy who also was tough enough to serve as his own enforcer. If Bryant, so supremely gifted, takes it upon himself to deal directly with those trying to contain or undermine his game, that makes him more Mark Messier than Wayne Gretzky -- no Marty McSorley needed. A number of great players have done it themselves, including Malone, Larry Bird, John Stockton, Kevin Garnett and Michael Jordan (when Charles Oakley wasn't volunteering for the duty).

    At that point, the only unsavory aspect, even unmanly, is when the star knows he will be getting the benefit of most doubts from the referees and the league. Then it's like Orr wearing a face shield while dishing out retribution. Or Bryant lipping off at Shane Battier or throwing up his arms in that "Who? Me?" gesture when Artest visits.

    That's why we can conclude that Bryant is, indeed, a dirty player. But we also can conclude that he is not the dirtiest player in L.A. -- that would be Manny Ramirez now, right?
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Al Capone

    Al Capone Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    36
  3. rocksclo

    rocksclo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    1
    yes, kobe is dirty and deserves no mvp award as well as respect on the court. talent does not justify immorality. we shouldnt be penalized for kobes wrongdoings and crime he convicted few years ago while the league is trying to redeem. kobe. SUSPEND KOBE FOR GAME 4 AND 5.
     
  4. orbb

    orbb Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    16
    facepalm
     
  5. professorjay

    professorjay Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    9,676
    Likes Received:
    388
    Good read, thanks for sharing.

    What's sad is Kobe really believes it.
     
  6. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,674
    Likes Received:
    7,432
    and that's why, despite his talent, he aint never gonna be no MJ! Also his selfish self absorbed nature keeps him from ever reaching that level. ;)
     
  7. ChenZhen

    ChenZhen Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2000
    Messages:
    1,779
    Likes Received:
    43
    Thats why I think the "Dirty Kobe" chants will be pretty effective against him...
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Brotha Ishtar

    Brotha Ishtar Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yes Kobe is dirty, but what makes him special is that he only plays dirty with those that he knows cannot, and usually will not retalliate. Mike Miller, Manu, Jaric...Childs and Reggie Miller...Battier, Artest? Before you tell me that Artest doesn't fit into this line-up...I would argue that YES he does. He fits into that line-up because he ABSOLUTELY CANNOT retaliate...not even in the slightest because Kobe knows Ron is held to a different standard....as evidenced by the numerous times this year where he has failed to even lif a hand in an argument before being hit with a technical, or in Wed Night's case, ejected. Kobe absolutely is a dirty player, but I think he's even more of a biatch because he clearly only targets people he knows are either smaller, not going to fight back, or in Rons case....going to lose their composure and get kicked out. On top of all this, he will taunt people that he has no business taunting. I have no probs with him taunting Ron, or Tracy, or any other player who can and will engage him in that sort game, but to taunt Battier the entire game like he did is just ridiculous and only makes him look like a bigger biatch. He's so quick to say stuff in front of the cameras about loving the physicality of the game....etc, but when it comes down to it....he's not up for it. I didn't see him taunting when Ron was in his face. I only wish Kobe could have played in the era of Jordan...when people like Charles Oakley would have shut his big mouth down real quick. Now, with all the skirt rules in the NBA, so many of these guys talk all this BS on the court because they know nothing can or will happen. Its the same thing that annoys me about KG. I mean, dude is in a suit on the bench and yelling as if he just posterized somebody. Why don't you actually knuckle up with somebody your own size off the court before you act like you are so untouchable. You know, as much as I hated Karl Malone and John Stockton for being dirty players, atleast I knew they were just doing what they had to do to win....and when all was said and done....they weren't walking around with a smirk on their face afterwards...basically saying to everyone....yeah I did that, now what are you going to do? The league ain't gonna touch me cause they need me too much. Its just an annoying, annoying site, and exactly why, if we don't win it, I hope Cleveland wins it because Lebron actually carries himself like a man, even though hes a kid, whereas Kobe does the exact opposite. I hope to hell we win tonight, because its the only way to wipe that **** eating grin off the SOB's face.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. vinsensual

    vinsensual Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    8,460
    Likes Received:
    794
    You just need to read up to the part where he is definitively called a dirty player. Thankfully, the author knew he would be loading this up with semantics and fluff so he put it in the first few sentences. And you can check the bulleted points for a little more gratification.

    I still read this as a Kobe apologist piece. Maybe I'm seeing too much red because its gameday and we haven't had a chance to retaliate, and by that I mean win our home games.
     
  10. binvegas

    binvegas Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2002
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    3
    Whats wrong with KG supporting his team on the bench he is just intense, where will Tmac be tonight on the bench or supposedly in Chicago?
     
  11. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,812
    Likes Received:
    39,119
    I think you may be right. I hope those lucky enough to be at tonight's game sing that song loud and often.
     
  12. Brotha Ishtar

    Brotha Ishtar Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    2
    The difference between Deke and Garnett...you tell me. One is supporting, and one is acting an ass. Running out on the court to get in somebodies face when you aren't even playing is ridiculous....and then screaming profanities while doing it? Theres really no place for it in my opinion. I love KG as a competitor....but c'mon dude. I think with him, he thinks he's intimidating people.....and again, I think when you are actually playing...blocking shots, getting rebounds, knocking down shots.....fine....but when you are on the bench....really? Who are you really intimidating?
     
  13. fenderprecision

    fenderprecision New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's like you said, he only goes after those who will or can not retalliate. What's it going to take to get this idiot kicked out of the game? I don't think anyone would object to a collection plate that would pay any fines of any player who did the dirty work. I'm in for $10.

    He reminds me of a first grader.

    And I thought I hated the Jazz!
     
  14. buiyahkah

    buiyahkah Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well put...no more need be said!
     
  15. Dave_78

    Dave_78 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    10,809
    Likes Received:
    373

    QFT

    You just summarized in one fantastic post what I have been rambling about for 36 hours.
     
  16. ralphabetsoup

    ralphabetsoup Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,685
    Likes Received:
    22
    So Kobe likes to hit white players while going for jumpshots?...

    Does that mean he'll get SHane with half a hit?...
     
  17. GMNot

    GMNot Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2002
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    87
    Have to disagree. Fisher's explanation WAS trying to get away with something. He painted his intent (I've never had violent intent to hurt anybody) as something other than what anybody watching the tape can see. He was out to hurt Scola. So not only was he playing dirty but he was being a weasle in owning up to his real intent. I would have respected him after the fact if he had said, "My temper got the best of me and yeah I was trying to send a message." But he chose the weasle way out.
     
  18. ralphabetsoup

    ralphabetsoup Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,685
    Likes Received:
    22
  19. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    6,993
    Likes Received:
    144
    These discussions aren't taking place in the arena of public discourse if Ron Artest doesn't pay Kobe Bryant a visit the other night.
     
  20. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2008
    Messages:
    16,308
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Yes, yes he is.

    There, how that's for instant gratification? Lots of columns would require you to plow through 800 to 1,000 words before revealing their conclusion, offering up all sorts of on-one-hands and on-the-other-hands in the meantime, holding the fundamental question at arm's length to ponder and study from several angles, leading to something namby-pamby and utterly unsatisfying.

    Not here. I'm coming with the good stuff right up top: Kobe Bryant is a dirty player.


    -----BEST LEDE and NUT I've ever read as a journalist...---------
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now