exactly, yao was basically useless v. the warriors or suns in some games b/c they just basically doubled him w/ short defenders and yao is too slow to react. now playing these types of teams, yao can go outside and punish their swarming D. teams that play him straight up for the most part, he'll be in the low post A LOT.
Guy, how many times do people have to say (including Adelman himself) that the high post stuff for Yao IS a changeup. Since he hasn't done it much, the preseason is where it needs to be a point of emphasis. Sorry you don't like it. If you follow baseball, pitchers often use spring training to work on new pitches and they throw a disproportionate number of the new pitch to work the kinks out. Everyone already knows how effective Yao is in the low post. Adelman is trying to expand his game and give the offense more options. Another thing to consider is Yao playing high can give other players better opportunities to score. After all, Yao can't take every shot on offense. We do not need any more of the all Yao every possession philosophy of JVG. To another poster, if a team puts a PF on Yao and leaves their C in the paint, two good possibilities open up for us. First, Scola can use his quickness to go around the other team's C or he can take a 10 foot jumper. Second, Yao being guarded by a PF 15 feet away from the basket really does make it little more than a FT. On those rare occasions, Yao will drill the shot more than 50% of the time.
I thought about whether or not I should post this but since there are so many people here with excellent basketball knowledge, I thought I'd post this interview by John Wooden on the High Post Low Post offense and see what comments we'd get about this article. I think Yao is going to be utilized like this. This article also explains why Luther Head has taken so well to the Adelman offense because Luther Head came from the Illinois Team that is described below. Evolution of the center position Coach and Athletic Director, Feb, 2006 by Glenn G. Dahlem Not very long after the invention of basketball by Dr. James Naismith in the 1880's, coaches figured out that it made sense to position their tallest player closest to the basket, both on offense or defense. So was born the offensive formation we still see today, the venerable low post. It didn't take rule-makers long to realize that a big man planted under the basket enjoyed a tremendous advantage in scoring and rebounding, and so the free-throw lane and three-second rule came into existence to limit low-post domination. This trend was expanded in the 1950's when the lane was widened to further inhibit the big-player dominance. The international game then followed by modifying the traditional rectangular shape of the lane to force even greater low post problems. These changes have given us the "paint" we see today. Long before lane modifications, coaches discovered another way to circumvent the three-second rule. By placing the center on the free-throw line, right in the middle of the offense, the coaches made him more feedable by guards. It also enabled him to score with various post-up moves and to execute feeds to cutting teammates. Enter the high post offense. But what if a team lacked a dominant tall player? Could speed rather than height dominate a squad? Coaches not having a so-called "big man" (or woman) noticed that trying a shorter player at low or high post was usually counter-productive. So was born the open or no-post offense. But what about the opposite personnel situation? What if a team had, among its five best players, two tall, "center type" individuals? A coach so blessed has to get them both into the game. The resultant offensive formation came to be known as the double-post or 1-3-1 (Diag. 1). This formation, often played asymmetrically (Diag. 2), proved to be highly effective against most zone defenses, and some coaches will employ it whether they have two unusually tall players or not. So it seemed that there were four basic ways to play a center, and limiting the choice of offensive formations to these four approaches. This rather rigid categorizing of offensive sets prevailed for some time, until two events during the 2004-2005 basketball season, one in the NCAA and the other in the NBA, would render it old-fashioned or at least over-simplified. The 2004-05 college basketball season saw an amazing run by the University of Illinois. Few persons had picked the Fighting Illini to win the Big Ten Championship, much less make it to the NCAA finals. They lost only twice all season. What made the Illinois success relevant to the topic of this article is the way in which the center was utilized. To be sure, Illinois had centers on the squad, like everyone else. What made them unique was that they entered a high or low post area by cutting into and through it, not remaining there very long. This put them in a better position to make moves or take shots, as their defenders had to be moving with them. A player passing through the high post would be positioned with his side, rather than back to the basket, or even facing the hoop, like a forward. This procedure allows for greater capitalization upon the post player's athleticism. We are not inferring that traditional back-to-the-basket high-post players of the past were not athletic, at least not some of them. Down through the years, centers like George Mikan, Bob Pettitt, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were certainly athletic. But when stationarily positioned on the free throw line, many of their best moves involved turn-around post-up jumpers and hook shots. Some traditional post-up centers were also gifted assists men. Arvydas Sabonis was great at hitting the cutter with a pass, for example. But it may be argued that a post player who largely faces the basket has the advantage in dishing the ball off, as his field of vision is superior. At the start of the 2004-5 NBA season, pundits lamented that the Phoenix Suns were in deep trouble because "they didn't have a center." These so-called experts howled when it was announced that Amare Stoudamire would be the Suns' center. What the critics were basing their thinking on was that Stoudamire was not a traditional center. After all, he was a forward, to be sure, with all the characteristics and moves of an NBA forward. Readers know the rest of the story; the Suns had the best won-lost record in the NBA. Why Amare Stoudamire did so well despite playing "out of position" is that being highly mobile and athletic, he was able to move in and out of both low and high posts usually facing the basket, like a forward. This made it possible for him to receive assists from teammates located on the sides and along the baseline. It also enabled him to continue using his customary forward-type shots, all the while playing the center position. Pursuing offensive rebounds and making assists was also easier for this type of center, as he already faced the source of the action from whence such opportunities arose. The role of the center may be changing, at least at the higher skill levels of basketball. Obviously, coaches cannot take any tall player and instruct him or her to play center facing the hoop. In order to implement this approach, a center must be quick and athletic, and know forward-type moves, as well as be tall. Not every player is going to fill that bill. However, a certain kind of player is more and more showing up in college and pro ranks these days. They are tall athletes in the traditional center height range who also possess skills like jump shooting, cutting, dribbling and various forms of lay-up shots--moves more normally associated with guards and forwards. It may be that offensive sets of the future will be less reminiscent of the familiar high, low, no, and double-posts we have all known, but more closely resemble those recently seen in Champaign, IL and Phoenix.
I'm sorry, I posted up the wrong article but it is still pertinant. The link to my previous post is: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FIH/is_7_75/ai_n17211965 Here is the interview from John Wooden on utilizing Kareem Abdul Jabbar or Lew Alcindor. http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?excerpt_id=4010 "For example, when Lewis Alcindor (now known as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) joined our team, I didn’t think that having him start at the high post was in our best interest nor his. Although the high-post offense would bring him to the low post eventually, I didn’t want him handling the ball up there at the high post; we had other players who could fulfill that responsibility better. With Lewis at the high post when the UCLA cut occurred, his defender would surely sag and stop the cutting guard from scoring if he received the pass from the forward. In addition, I didn’t feel comfortable having him pass to the ducking weak-side forward. I wanted him close to the basket for scoring and rebounding reasons. Determined to create an offensive system that would take full advantage of Lewis without diminishing the offensive effectiveness of the other players or sacrificing principles such as ball movement and flexibility, I came up with a variation of the high-post offense that we called the high-low offense. Although it did not have the degree of player movement I wanted, it was effective, both against zone and man-to-man defenses. Only two of my teams used that offense: Alcindor’s and Walton’s. The rest used selected plays and versions of the high post."
ABCDEF - "There is a reason why Brad Miller was never considered a premier center even though he put up good numbers, and this is it. He has no post game and hangs around the perimeter jacking up jumpers. We don't want Yao to end up like this. If he does, Adelman needs to be fired." Response - Wow ABCDEF - "think everyone knows that being a proficient low-post scorer is superior to being able to shoot and create from the high post, because the shots are closer to the basket, causes more fouls, and in general just is more dominant." Response - You are correct, if Yao was playing 1 on 1, or 1 on 5. The purpose of high post action with any BIG is to open up seams for the REST OF THE TEAM. ABCDEF - "Because Yao has established himself in the low post, he should stay there." Response - Because that would be so innovative...? ABCDEF - "Further, the defense might pressure Yao with a PF and leave their center in the paint, since our PF is Scola/Hayes, who aren't exactly hard to guard, and thus they still have their basket protector under the basket." Response - Scola might take offense to that. He is after all, A TWO TIME SPANISH LEAGUE MVP. I hate to flame you my man, but come on. What are you so afraid of? If you doubled Yao's minutes from last night, he would have approx. 25 points, 9 boards, 6 assists. If he averages that as a center, he is the MVP. He will be just as dominant inside, and Adelman has said REPEATEDLY that Yao will have plenty of touches in the low block. He will not turn into Brad Miller, nor Vlade Divac.
By the way, the illustration of the high-low post offense from the Raptors is illustrated in flash on this link. It's incrediblly good graphics so for those of you who want to understand what Adelman is doing, here are some basic formations. Adelman also utilizes some of the Princeton offense with backdoor cuts so it a variation of the UCLA/Princeton offense. http://www.snoware.ca/bball/Raptors2.swf
I'm not saying that everything will be run this way because a great coach will utilize his best players talents. So I think Adelman will utilize more offensive plays just for Yao.
You're funny. Mixing it up by having Yao play the high post is the keystone to Aldeman's offense. Not having someone parked down low is what opens thing up for cuts to the basket. Please make me laugh again with your silly comments. Next your going to tell me SF will return to 20 PPG. No no please stop you're killing me.
yeah because a 7 game sample at a time when he was still recovering from an injury is the best indicator of his low post ability. nevermind that utah didn't exactly shut him down. i like the idea of bringing yao out to free up some space and let him initiate the offense, but adelman himself has said he'd be a fool to take him out of the post more often than not. don't downplay yao's post presence. when he's in the paint with the ball, he's the most dominant player in the league.
No worry, Adelman isn't a hardhead that does things in only one way. I expect to see Yao beginning to operate down low as preseason games unfold. Right now, set plays for Yao and T-Mac aren't there yet. I think we'll see a new Yao, doing things all over the court, he's gonna have the freedom to manage his game at his improvisation. A mechanical worker repeats, an artist improvises. It's gonna be exciting.
Agreed but with the caveat that this is a very complex offense. Did anyone look at the few simple lineups in the flash link I put up? I mean, whew, there are so many possible variations. It's no wonder that T-Mac and Stevie haven't found their groove yet. Plus, when you get the ball, you gotta make a decision instantaneouly as to what to do and you have about 3 different dirrections to go with the ball or without the ball. Everybody is cutting at the same time.
Agree with everything you said here, I think Yao should play in the high post about 1/2 his possessions cuz it just opens up alot more opportunities for everybody else. I mean with the lane so open like that it just seems to make more sense for the other 4players on the team.
most of yao's points last year came from his shooting that short 10 foot shot from the side. hes not a TRUE post player like shaq or duncan, meanin he has no go-to move. the high post is much better susited for yao.
Before the injury Yao had been very agressive. He had attacked the rim so well he'd has a lot more confidence. And after that injury he lost it. Most of his shots in the game were that jumpers. He lost his confidence a little bit. Now I want him to be agressive inside, try to dunk everythink and draw a lot of fouls. And of course I want him to pass teh ball to the right guy on the high post.
What are you talking about? Shaq, Duncan and Yao have the three best post games in the NBA. In fact, they are one of the few REAL back-to-the-basket players left in the game. YAO didn't put up MVP numbers playing the high post, it was from dominance on the low block. He didn't receive double and triple teams for nothing. No go-to move? Do you even watch yao play? I guess you never seen show Yao shoot the un-blockable fadeaway from the low left block. You know, the "short 10 foot shot from the side". Yes, that shot requires him to POST up and the fade away. Letting YAO mix it up is fine, but to say that he is better suited for the high post as opposed to the low block is just ridiculous. He made his living and name from posting up down low. If he wasn't scoring from the low block, he was kicking it out or drawing the foul. So unlike the other dominant post players (Shaq,TimD), he can hit most of his free throws so it makes his presence down low that much important. Teams can't rely on fouls to stop him like they do Shaq and sometimes Duncan. It's funny, you see YAO play the high post for only ONE half of basketball and already think that it's better suited for him. HILARIOUS.
I guess by your definition, the only TRUE post move/go-to-move is the back down and dunk? Yao has plenty of post moves. He's got that baseline spin that ends up as a dunk or freethrows, his Shanghai Shake, and his baby hook - all of which require Yao to back people down and bang in the low post. Yao was top 10 in the league in FTA's last year for a reason. And that reason sure as hell wasn't having Yao hang around the high post like Brad Miller. Mark my words, Yao will not be nor will he be considered dominant anymore if he plays like all of Adelman's other centers. I really don't get why you want a 25/10/2blks MVP candidate who distorts opponents defenses like Shaq did to turn into a 15/8/4assists jump-shooting fairy with marginal impact.
Did anyone even read the article above about the evolution of the modern center???? This obsession with sticking Yao only at the low post or high post is silly. Adelman is not going to turn Yao into Vlade Divac or Miller. He is going to catch the ball on the run making cuts without a defender sagging on him which is way better than before.
I read it, but didn't have any comment on it. It's well written I think you could probably document the change to a cutting center farther back than the 2004 Illini team in College basketball. I will have to think about it for a bit to see how far back I remember a team first doing a modified high low post cutter.
