1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Was 911 an Inside Job?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by ROCKET RY, Jul 13, 2007.

  1. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    41

    So you are saying you are uninformed yet you want to feel like you are in-the-know???

    I have to say, I'm really fascinate by what makes people think 9/11 was an inside job? I guess it's too spectacular and hard for you to accept? Maybe you're not stupid...maybe just some sort of psychological problem going on there that prevents you from seeing reality. I have no idea.

    I don't feel like I am in the know. I know. How? Because there's no red flags here. There's nothing that makes ya wonder. There's no grassy knoll, know magic bullet, no shadowy CIA backgrounds.

    And I myself know enough to debunk many of the conspiracy theorists claims. Surprising huh? Amazing what a basic education can do. I think people who latch on to these theories have another agenda. Often they are disenfrancised and resentful of "big brother", loathe the gov't, or are Muslims and don't want to feel the association their faith had to what happened. I also think some of them feel a void in their lives and need something to fill it...and believing this crap can do it.

    And you know what, that makes them stupid. You can't see the prison of thought you've made for yourself - but I think people here have throughly debunked the claim 9/11 was an inside job with utter logic and clairty.

    All the evidence points to what the investigators and commission reported. There isn't a single piece of decent evidence that points to an inside job. Not one. There isn't even a good question.

    So yeah, if you believe in something without any good evidence or just take some website as the truth, then you have some problems my friend. You and the 25% of people who think this was an inside job are basing it on what? Nothing? Your gut? What????

    Can't you see theres something wrong in your head? Wake up man.
     
  2. ryan17wagner

    ryan17wagner Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    72

    Just things to think about. Not saying 9/11 was inside job or conpsiracy theory, but some things to think about. The twin towers fell at free fall speed. Which means if you were at top when the towers fell and dropped a ball, they would hit the ground at the exact same time. On 9/11, the military had a excercise going in which planes were hijacked and used to fly into the Twin Towers. They had a hard time distinguishing which were war games and which were real life.

    Also, there were allegations of insider trading by people with foreknowledge. News accounts in the aftermath reported a notable pattern of trading in the options of United and American Airlines[45] as well as Morgan Stanley and[46] other market activity.[47] One report on this theory appeared in 2001[48] and another in 2002.[49]

    In a statement to the 9/11 Commission in 2003, Mindy Kleinberg, of the 9/11 Family Steering Committee, said: "Never before on the Chicago Exchange were such large amounts of United and American Airlines options traded. These investors netted a profit of at least $5 million after the September 11th attacks. Interestingly, the names of the investors remain undisclosed and the $5 million remains unclaimed in the Chicago Exchange account."[50]

    Regarding these trades, the 9/11 Commission found no malfeasance:
    A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10, the Commission said. Similarly, the Commission said, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, that recommended these trades.[51]

    The article published in The Journal of Business in year 2006 provides statistical claims of unusual option market activity days before 9/11:

    A measure of abnormal long put volume was also examined and seen to be at abnormally high levels in the days leading up to the attacks. Consequently, the paper concludes that there is evidence of unusual option market activity in the days leading up to September 11 that is consistent with investors trading on advance knowledge of the attacks.[52]

    And did a Boeing 757 really hit the Pentagon? Or a smaller air craft?
    In June 2007, Calum Douglas, from Pilots for 9/11 Truth[29], presented an analysis of (allegedly) Flight 77 black box data. [97] The data was obtained from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) after issuing a petition via the Freedom of Information Act. The analysis provides with three independent methods of measuring aircraft position and two methods of measuring aircraft height near the end of the recording. Pilots for 9/11 Truth issue the following press release:

    1. The NTSB Flight Path Animation approach path and altitude does not support official events.
    2. All Altitude data shows the aircraft at least 300 feet too high to have struck the light poles.
    3. The rate of descent data is in direct conflict with the aircraft being able to impact the light poles and be captured in the Dept of Defense "5 Frames" video of an object traveling nearly parallel with the Pentagon lawn.
    4. The record of data stops at least one second prior to official impact time.
    5. If data trends are continued, the aircraft altitude would have been at least 100 feet too high to have hit the Pentagon.
    NTSB and FBI to this day decline to issue any comments about discrepancies with the black box data.




    And also, During the 9/11 Commission's public hearings, Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta offered the following testimony:

    There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary? [141]

    Several conspiracy theorists have posited that the orders spoken of must have been an order to not shoot down the plane that was approaching the Pentagon. They conclude that expected action would be to defend the Pentagon and the unusual nature of the order explains the young man's disbelief.[142]
     
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
    bush is a cheerleader, nothing more.
     
  4. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
  5. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    You're making my point though. My statement was that there is always going to be a variety of opinions on major issues and generally these will coalesce around a majority and a minority viewpoint. Frequently people who support the minority viewpoint will argue on the basis that this view is actually held by more people than people realize so it should be given more validity. That in itself isn't justification for the view.

    In regard to global warming you've stated you subscribe to a minority viewpoint on it. That's fine and good but that isn't proof that that view is correct. In the end the facts matter and a lot of specific details have been made supporting the majority viewpoint. That you choose not to recognize the reasoning behind it is your opinion but I would say much of it is formed along the same reasoning to make the official view regarding 9/11.
     
  6. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    I haven't looked at some of the other claims regarding insider trading or wargames but I can address this. The Twin Towers fell fast but not quite at free fall speed. Further if you rewatch the videos you will see they don't fall at once. Notably the top part of the North Tower sloughs off to the side and then the rest of the tower falls. On the South Tower the antennae dissappears and then the rest of it falls. The other problem with citing how fast the towers fell as part of a controlled demolition is that while controlled demolitions are meant to go fast it would be difficult to make it fall that fast without having a very strong understanding of how it would work and a lot of explosives, as noted in the NIST report. That would again require lots of planning before hand to try to accurately model how the towers would fall ahead of time along with somehow sneaking in and planting all of that thermite.

    Doing something like that might not be impossible but strikes me as very unlikely.
     
  7. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,209
    Likes Received:
    9,527
    the whole entire administration is incompetent and has lacked planning with the operations they have undertaken in iraq. it's not just bush who is a dunce.
     
  8. tulexan

    tulexan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    5
    I don't understand the controlled demolition theory. Do people realize how much planning and how precise the power and location of the explosives is necessary? How is the government going to be able to do all of this in two office buildings without anyone noticing? Also, investment bankers (the majority of people employed in the two towers) work all night, so the chances of them not noticing slim.
     
  9. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    41

    No...but nice try.

    My view on global warming is based on analysis of data provided and of holding it up to the scientific method. My complaint was that if global warming is truly man-made, there should be effects predicted by the models. To date, no where in the media (or made on this board) as anyone done that (except for the debunked consiracy theory). Whether my view is in the minority or not is irrelevant.

    Now, I have done my own research and my point of view on global warming is shifting. My view is based on the information, not on preconceived desires or opinions. That is the difference. The conspiracy theorists warp information to fit their reality and ignore details that contradict it.

    I merely look at the information at hand. I never claimed that global warming was not caused by man made - I just said it wasn't a convincing case as with the info I was presented with.

    With 9/11, the information is pretty much as clear as day.
     
  10. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    41

    I don't agree that they feel at free fall speeds. It's clear that they fell from the top down and not any other way.

    I'm not surprised that people knew about the attacks and profited from it. I'm sure some of those involved in the attacks (Saudis?) advised family and friends around the world to short the market and the airlines in particular. The fact that the gov't isn't disclosing too much makes sense too - perhaps the stock market can be used to predict future strikes if information is leaking and people are using it to profit.

    Finally, I don't understand why people think the Pentagon was even the target??? It was the white house, and why on earth would someone want to attack the pentagon, especially the gov't???? You have to have a motive. And where do you think the flight that was hijacked went? Where did all the people go? Do you think they are still alive?

    So many holes in all of this, why don't people just THINK. Think about the plausibility.
     
  11. across110thstreet

    across110thstreet Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    12,707
    Likes Received:
    1,366
    ryan17wagner, there was NEVER any exercise on 9/11 regarding hijacked planes into the twin towers...

    your information source has twisted reality and now has you believing info that has no merit or no factual evidence to prove the contrary...

    http://www.911myths.com/html/operation_vigilant_guardian.html

    the entire 9/11 conspiracy has been invented by two men- Alex Jones of prisonplanet and professor Steven Jones from the Brigham Young University (who was fired by the way)...

    they have turned the young, the naive, the foreigners who hate America , into the sheep that they accuse intelligent people of becoming...

    you believe every blog post you read, you look at someone analyzing videos or photographs of 9/11 and you take their every word hook, line, and sinker...


    and I just gave you the nist report's current hypothesis... its out there, no one wants to read the facts, they just want to believe what they are told... sound familiar?
     
    #191 across110thstreet, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  12. tulexan

    tulexan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    5

    Not only that, but how do conspiracy theorists explain all of the eye witness reports (and video evidence) of a commercial airliner smashing into the Pentagon. It is not like this was done in the middle of the night. People saw an American Airlines jet fly right over their heads and hit the Pentagon and then there was debris from that jet all over the place around the Pentagon. Did the government use their Men in Black amnesia rays to make them forget about what they saw and then scatter debris everywhere? Not to mention they would have to knock down light poles in the flight path without anyone seeing them do it.

    9/11 was awful and everyone saw what happened on worldwide television coverage. This didn't happen in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night or over the ocean. This happened in two of the most important cities in the country with everyone watching live.

    I know some people have no faith in what the government does, but when you look at the facts there is really no other explanation. How would the government pull off such an elaborate attack without a paper trail or anyone saying a single word? I think people are starting to believe what they see on TV and in the movies too much.
     
  13. ryan17wagner

    ryan17wagner Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    72


    Aside from military exercises, a National Reconnaissance Office drill was being conducted on September 11, 2001. In a simulated event, a small aircraft would crash into one of the towers of the agency's headquarters after experiencing a mechanical failure. The NRO is the branch of the Department of Defense in charge of spy satellites. According to its spokesman Art Haubold: "No actual plane was to be involved -- to simulate the damage from the crash, some stairwells and exits were to be closed off, forcing employees to find other ways to evacuate the building." He further explained: "It was just an incredible coincidence that this happened to involve an aircraft crashing into our facility, as soon as the real world events began, we cancelled the exercise." Most of the agency's personnel were sent home after the attacks.[12]
     
  14. across110thstreet

    across110thstreet Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    12,707
    Likes Received:
    1,366
    okay... this is from wikipedia, did you to read the article from which it was referenced? where did you get the twin towers out of this?

    http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/defense/sfgate_exercise_082102.html

    let me clear something up for you...

     
  15. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    This thread should be locked so everyone's assets don't get siezed.
     
  16. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
    you should probably check this stuff out than before dismissing the conspiracy theories.

    http://www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-up10pg

    do some paroosing here one rainy night - everything they say is linked to mainstream news article. very good resource.
     
  17. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
    it is either total incompetence or total criminality - to me, the real conspiracy theory is that all of these people who previously ran multi-billion dollar companies (some of which are the very companies profiting off their "mistakes") are idiots.
     
  18. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
    and i was specifically talking about the 9/11 commission report. you see, building 7 is not mentioned at all in the entire report. you missed my point.
     
  19. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,406
    no, but there were war games exercises going on on the morning of 9/11. remember the transcripts from flight control asking "is this real world or exercise?"

    here is an article about previous war games drills - remember that bush had said that nobody ever envisioned flying planes into buildings.

    also, dont forget that in the early 60's the pentagon approved operation northwoods, which called for carrying out terrorism and hijacking airplanes in the united states - government sponsored terrorism is nothing new...

     
  20. across110thstreet

    across110thstreet Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    12,707
    Likes Received:
    1,366
    and you missed mine... there is a scientific explanation to wtc 7 and it was provided by the nist...

    meanwhile the 9-11 report was
    do you see my point? we can go round and round, and you can post me all the links to all the blog pages you have read, all the youtube videos with ominous music and bad voiceover narration by failed film school students..

    but the truth of the matter is that the 9-11 report didnt include anything about wtc7 because wtc7 falling had nothing to do with the attack on America, it had to do with a building coming down to the ground after the twin towers fell in lower Manhattan, leaving many of their surrounding buildings compromised...

    remember the transcripts of 9/11...dont forget the early 60's! this is all laughable, like you are enlightened with information that changes my perception of what happened on 9/11/01..

    I know there were exercises on 9/11, they had nothing to do with bringing down the twin towers on 9/11..that is my point, and you sorely missed it
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now