How good would would Harden and Rockets be if he had the mentality and leadership of MJ?

i wouldn't mind if Harden was more competitive, but it's definitely not why Harden isn't winning chips.

like everyone else points out, we consistently get out-coached, and we can't ever put together a roster full of versatile small forwards like other franchises because Houston is just not the best destination for sports despite what people claim.

Harden is a generational talent, this much i'm sure of. Houston fans should be glad we have this guy embracing the city instead of leaving like every other superstar out there.

i, for one, am glad that we're not losing in the first round every single year.

 

All Harden needs is to have the mentality and work ethic of Kobe and He would be greater than Jordan.

 

Exactly

we had dumbass people saying that our team was championship material because their favorite player was on the team
yet we couldn't get past the first round
these idiots seemed happy by their dumb 'what if' fantasy that they forgot about reality.

It took James Harden to actually put us in the conference finals since Charles Barkley did it, that was along time ago

@Zboy

 

Danuel House needs to continue and hold serve.

The clutch play of house is prime for sure!

 

It's the talent.

Especially the bench depth.

Cannot win without the talent.

D'Antoni has performed miracles without a 2nd star and shallow bench.

 

Anything can be learned by studying. Any skill can be improved by hard working. But not everyone can be good at anything they set their mind to learn.

Let's take shooting. Do you think bad shooters are bad because they are too lazy to practice shooting? Maybe some of them, or even most of them are. But I am sure there are a lot of players who practice hard and are still mediocre shooters. You can only improve yourself to a certain extent. Otherwise there would be a lot more Steph Currys. Court vision is another thing that can be improved by studying and by experience. But if that's all that is, then a lot more players would be Nash and CP3. Same with rebounding, and I can go on and on.

In fact, most players who are able to make it to the NBA have been working really hard on their games just to be able to get there.

 

But my argument isn't that anyone with study and hard work could be elite at any skill.

It's that with study and hard work you could be an average to above average defender.

I think the reason Jordan and Lebron are what they are (top 5 all time players) because they worked extremely hard to have such a well rounded game and worked their tails off to make sure they do not have any weaknesses to their game.

Same with Hakeem for instance.

Harden just isn't what he can be defensively and I think, always think, that he can be a better defender.

I do think people go overboard calling him a terrible defender, he's average, but sometimes, when he's tuned in, he can be really good.

 

I don't disagree with the main premise of what you say. I think the problem with Harden is exactly what you say, not being tuned in all the time. In fact, I'd even say that sometimes he's even tuned out on offense. It's just that he does it more often on defense.

I don't think it is because he is lazy. I have always suspected there's something not quite right with him mentally. I am not talking about mental illness. Maybe it's lack of focus. Maybe it's lack of mental toughness. I can't quite put my finger on it. I think few people would deny that there are times when Harden's mind is completely absent in the game. Sometimes it's a stretch in a game. Sometimes it's a whole game. Sometimes it's a stretch of several games. Unfortunately sometimes it's an important game in the playoffs.

You know what games I am referring to. His apologists would make excuses. The most common excuse is that he was exhausted. I really doubt that it is fatigue because these moments are so unpredictable. Fatigue should be predictable. But it just happened. And then he's back to normal again without any trace of tiredness. Because of those games, he gets the reputation of choking in the playoffs. But it happens in the regular season too. It's just that those are not crucial games like it is in the playoffs and people don't remember them as much. If you look at his overall playoffs numbers, he's not doing significantly worse in the playoffs, except for those memorably bad games.

 

And he has a track record of being out coached at every stop in his nba career

 

Yeah, I agree with that and you put it as well as I ever could.

It's...something. I don't know, it's hard to explain, but we've all seen it. It's like someone gave their little brother the controls and they are not quite sure what they are doing. It's very puzzling.

 

and that's exactly what harden is. he's literally one of the best post defenders in the league, has more steals over the last 4 or 5 years than anyone in the league, and currently gets at least average marks on the advanced defensive metrics. and in his spare time he scores 35 ppg. if you think there's some higher level for james harden, then prepare to be disappointed. comparing him to guys like battier and bowen. bowen was way more agile and capable of stopping and starting very well. and also, bowen and battier got to go stand still in the corner for 20 seconds every offensive possession. you can play a lot harder on defense when you have literally no offensive responsibility other than catching and shooting.

yes, they have worked very hard. but it's not a coincidence that the 2 greatest players ever are/were also the 2 most athletic/explosive perimeter players ever. almost everyone works hard. when no one can hang with you athletically, it's easier to do literally everything. you don't get as tired, you wear your opponents out, you can just rise up for a shot and clear your defender by a mile. harden has to do 20 dribbles and jump backwards 5 feet to get a sliver of daylight for his shots. because he's 6'-5" and not insanely quick. it takes every ounce of skill, working in the summer, and execution to do what he does. lebron and jordan get/got an open 3 literally any time they felt like it because people were backing off of them because their drives were so feared.

again, one of the greatest athletes in nba history, by all accounts. incredibly strong for his size, incredibly quick, seemingly endless endurance. these aren't things that just happen. there are plenty of really good players who couldn't do what those guys do in terms of literally doing everything and almost playing 48 minutes. you either have it or you don't. jordan could play 36 holes of golf and then play a finals game the next day. that's not working hard, that's just innate. no different than james harden being ridiculously strong. i'm sure he works out, but not everyone is going to be that strong just by working out more. we can all talk about things we wish harden did better, specifically make his bad moments not quite as atrocious and not mentally check out from time to time, but there's not a 35 ppg, lockdown defense james harden being hidden by not working hard.

 

i think people just need to accept that beating the kevin durant warriors was considered a ridiculous task when he joined them and nothing over the next 3 years changed that fact. they were a fluke of history caused by a crazy cap spike, a sensitive superstar who didn't know what he wanted, and all sorts of other luck on top of a bunch of skill and good decisions. and we still almost beat them. twice.

our best players played well in 2018. everybody played as hard as you could. our coach coached well and gave us a system that dominated most of the league. our gm built a good roster that won 65. we built an 8 man rotation that was as solid offensively and defensively as you can possibly be, one that was better than a decent number of actual champions. tucker/ariza/luc as perimeter guys. harden and cp3 for offensive geniuses. clint capela as a rim-running modern big. and still room for a great wildcard scorer like gordon. there's only so much depth you can afford under the cap when you have to pay harden/cp3, and you have to have top level talent like harden/cp3 to compete. the only way to get more depth is to have your star be friends with and recruit lebron james or have a fluke hand you kevin durant at just the right moment.

a great 8 man rotation is about as good as you will get if you have to have superstars to compete with a 2 mvp/2 all-star juggernaut. unfortunately, 1 of the 8 (luc) got hurt and basically missed the whole series, and then the 2nd best of the 8 got hurt for the 2 most important games. you can weather that (at least luc) against a regular contender. but not that warriors team. you can't just throw gerald green into those kinds of games and hope he knows what he's doing. and then unfortunately our wonderful owner got cheap and let ariza and luc disappear and brought in luxury tax savings at the trade deadline in the following year when the warriors were definitely weaker. we took our shot. it was better than a lot of shots throughout nba history. it was just the wrong time.

 

*Most winningest coach in Rockets franchise history. Rockets have had 50+ win season every year and contend for the O'Brien EVERY SEASON under D'Antoni. Rockets have not had that since Rudy T - that was over 20+ years ago.

*Revolutionized NBA - several times with several teams.

*2x Coach of the Year

*Rockets only team to consistently legit challenge GSW dynasty every season of their 5 year run, an all time team stocked with 4-6 Allstars.

*Coach consistently maximizes guards from good to great, from great to All Time Great.

*Coached 3 MVPs, and counting.

*Under D'Antoni Harden led League in assists (first season together with Harden at PG) and led League in scoring 3 consecutive seasons.

*Under D'Antoni Westbrook is having his most efficient season EVER. Many say he is doing better than his MVP season.

Not bad for being outcoached amirite?

 

We're talking about defense though in general.

You don't have to be an athletic freak to be a great defender, you just don't have to be.

John Stockton one of the best defenders of all time, he wasn't this super athletic freak like Jordan. Neither was Payton, neither is CP3, neither is Beverly, Jason Kidd, etc etc. Westbrook is probably the most atheltic guard to ever play and his defense is...well..lacking. It's not effort that Russ is missing though, never effort, it's just knowledge and knowing where to be...IQ things basically. I bet if you give him JVG as a coach for most of his career though he takes a big leap forward on defense.

But, lets leave his scoring out of this discussion, because we never talked about his scoring. Just his defense. No one is doubting his scoring, the question being posed was if he had a different mentality could he be a better defender?

Also, Bowen is NOT more agile than Harden. No way. No how. There is not a single aspect of Bruce Bowen that is more athletic than Harden. Not many players change speed as well as harden does, it's part of his game here it looks like he's going slow and then...zip...he's past you.

In fact, Harden is pretty damn athletic, people really underestimate that about him. He can push the ball when he wants to, he can be a menace on the break when he wants to (he can't do it all game because how high his usage is) and he's very likely the strongest guard in the NBA right now...and he's had more than a few posters with plenty of explosion. No, he's really athletic...definitely moreso than Payton, CP3, Stockton, and Kidd, no doubt about that.

Jordan could play 36 hours of golf and then play a full game because of cardio, having great cardio IS hard work. I think one thing we should have taken from that documentary was that Jordan just worked harder than most people in the NBA. He was fully dedicated to honing his body, he made sure his diet was right, and he practiced nearly half a day every single day, he made it a routine so that it could not be skipped. I'm sure he skipped a few days but you'd be surprised how many pro-athletes don't put in the work that he did. Giannis is over here admitting he hasn't played because he doesn't have a hoop at his home...you think Jordan would have admitted that? If Jordan were in this situation he'd get someone to roll a basketball goal to his house? It's crazy to me how many NBA players are admitting they don't have a goal at their house and they are just fine not practicing their craft this whole time.

The point is, I think Harden could play better defense. If you look at the end of games, big games, he's there on defense. I remember him getting a big stop in the WCF against Durant of all people. When he's there, locked in, one on one, he's not an easy guy to get past. I think if he played in the 90s he'd even be a better defender because he'd get to use his strength on the perimeter a lot more...

But Harden is athletic as hell, that's not the reason his defense is average, it's a mental thing, could be a coaching thing too, but its something he can get better at. He's going to need to get better at it too because winning a championship takes every once of talent a player has.

 

gawd damn @Reeko is ON FIRE in this thread.

 

Exactly. Watch a collection of MJ highlights and one of the most notable things is how little time he takes off the shot clock before he makes his move to score. It's often just a quick curl from the elbow and a quick catch and shoot. Very effortless and doesn't eat up the shot clock allowing defenders to rest.

Harden needs to lull his defender most of the time to be effective. Harden used to be a good one man fast break but he's left that high speed atheletic phase of his career for this stationary iso ball.

 

Harden has poor lateral quickness...yes, he changes speed, and blows by defenders often, but his lateral quickness is lacking

there are many guys who have very good lateral quickness and are able to move their feet and stay in front of guys on defense, but put a ball in their hands and ask them to go north-south instead of east-west and they become slow as hell

if Harden had a much lower offensive burden, he could expend more energy on defense

P3 Applied Sports Science, who have worked with over 100 NBA players, measured James Harden’s athletic abilities and found out that he was average to below average in most categories. While being one of the best basketball players on the planet, his physique certainly doesn’t stand out as much as that of LeBron James or Russel Westbrook. So, finding out that he’s not one of the most athletic players in the NBA is definitely not a surprise. But knowing this, what is it then, besides the cognitive portion of the game, that gives him such an enormous edge over the rest of his peers in the NBA?

It turns out that James Harden is elite at decelerating, according to Marcus Elliott at P3. His exact words are “Harden is barely average in almost every metric we look at related to athleticism, except for deceleration metrics, and in those he’s one of the best athletes we’ve ever measured in any sport — in soccer, football, or basketball.”

from another article about this

Harden's unique style of play is easy to identify on the court, but when Adidas began the process of designing the Harden Vol. 2, the company wanted to dive further into the science behind the talents that have made Harden a six-time All-Star and perennial MVP candidate.

The first step of that process came at Peak Performance Project, a sports training facility in Santa Barbara, California, known simply as P3, for short. Adidas' product, design and marketing teams combed through a sequence of tests that Harden underwent last summer.

Initially, Harden's results were largely underwhelming, which didn't come as a surprise. According to the team tasked with building out his signature collection, Harden measured out in average terms by most metrics, ranking nowhere near the explosiveness of Andrew Wiggins or the speed of John Wall.

He did, however, raise eyebrows when the lab noticed a key trait of his that stood out ahead of some of the world's most gifted and fine-tuned athletes: his braking and deceleration. Harden ranked in the 99th percentile of athletes tested at P3 in how fast he could stop, then shift directions.

 

Great theory, I think with all his money
one ought to think he hired a coach for mental toughness and mental strength.

Short time concentration deficiency of some sorts?

While some players like Lebron works on his weaknesses only, Harden works on his strength more and comes up with more signature moves which is great but not everything.

Can't name one signature move for LBJ.

 

It is all up to Hartenstein to lead the team.