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[Official] Joe 2020

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by justtxyank, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I don't disagree with anything here really .... but I think the individual lobbies were allowed a bit too much latitude which has significantly contributed to the rising costs. I almost feel like they bent the curve in both directions at once - the pre-existing people got what they wanted but everyone else has and is seeing soaring costs along with rising deductibles - especially those who pay out of pocket which I did for many years. Couple years ago my wife moved to an agency with really good (cost competitive) insurance and I've been on her plan ever since but its still much higher than pre-ACA.

    Bending the curve didn't solve the problem at all , costs have continued to increase and we're in agreement - the appeal of single payer does indicate that either the curve wasn't bent enough or bending the curve simply wasn't enough , likely the latter.

    I'm sure you've been paying attention and know that support some form of M4A .... I think it's really the only long term solution that stops the proverbial bleeding for the middle class and working poor. We just can't afford to contribute a sixth or more of our annual income on healthcare.

    Right now , those health related lobby's - insurance , pharma and hospitals are extracting the absolute maximum from as many people as possible and ACA heavily contributes to that.

    M4A on the surface seems to spread the burden but it does little to control costs - we all know our government is well known for overpaying for everything - $300 hammers & screw drivers ... Bernie's numbers seem typical of that when we spent $3.86T last year and his plan calls for $4t+ a year .... after cutting out the insurance man. Common sense tells you there should be some savings there .... where is it ?!

    This is the conundrum of healthcare in a capitalistic system. I just don't see capitalism working in this industry when society has made the decision that everyone gets the care and meds they require regardless of ability to pay. The burden of (massive) profits is just to much to bear along with taking care of those who cant take care of themselves.

    Putting the problem on states isn't the solution either ....

    No , bending the curve was not enough.
    But Bernie's plans don't stop with healthcare - if they did , I think he would have locked down this nomination on Super Tuesday - Its all that other stuff that's so toxic to most moderates , independents and fiscal conservatives.
     
  2. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I won't argue those points - its quite possible you are correct ....

    I just see the status quo - ACA , with or without the mandate - as allowing the healthcare lobby's to continue to extract maximum wealth from as many of us as possible. They let the fox build the hen house.
    Can't allow that to happen again.
     
  3. fallenphoenix

    fallenphoenix Contributing Member

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    which parts of his "overhaul" do you think are too far?
     
  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I think you're right. I think there was already a significant principal-agent problem in health insurance, and the ACA doubles down on it. From what I've seen, it might have controlled costs compared to a might-have-been, but even in the best case I think it is too small a solution (even with a public option).

    What happens with insurance and especially with government subsidies for insurance is that consumers are empowered to consume without a clear price signal about the cost of doing so. With this price insensitivity, healthcare providers see latitude to offer more and charge more. They make big investments and increase their cost base (fancy hospitals, latest equipment, expensive educations, financially risky R&D), which now must be paid for. So when the insurer or the government looks at why a band-aid costs $300, there isn't a huge abnormal profit margin to squeeze out -- there are these large capital investments that have to be paid for. Our hospitals are gold-plated, and that's expensive.

    In other industries, you might starve the beast. Cut the financing of consumption. Obviously, there would be deadly consequences to doing that to healthcare. Instead, by giving more people access to the healthcare system, the ACA can help schmear the costs of investments over more customers. My problem with it is that it does not remove the perverse incentive to invest in more and more healthcare because the insurance companies are making sure the money shows up. I don't think Biden's public option will make that any better. Because the public option will also make sure the money shows up, and maybe with subsidies too. M4A might also be inadequate to the task, quite honestly, because it may have to relent to the reality of the cost base of the healthcare industry. Or, if it can drive down the price, it will do so at the expense of innovation and quality.
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Tripling the federal budget?

    Increasing the amount of the GDP going to the government through taxes to nearly 75%?

    Making nearly half the country employed by the government?
     
  6. fallenphoenix

    fallenphoenix Contributing Member

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    not sure why you're asking me questions. interesting points. what are your sources?
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Independent think tank studies on the issue as well as the amounts of the programs outlined by Sanders and confirmed by economists.

    Sanders wanted to increase the federal spending by 100 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

    While the plans Sanders proposes are wonderful and would solve some ills, they would cause other ones.

    Also, increasing the federal spending to nearly 75% of the GDP would have severe consequences to the economy and economic growth.

    I support a single payer system (although it will have problems too) but I do not support attempting to do everything that he is trying to do.
     
    joshuaao likes this.
  8. The Real Shady

    The Real Shady Contributing Member

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    This is going to be one of the biggest landslide victories in the history of the presidential election for Biden. The one thing Trump had going for him with the moderate right was, "You may hate him, but he's good for the economy." Without that he's got no chance.
     
    Jayzers_100 likes this.
  9. mick fry

    mick fry Member

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    That’s the spirit, really no need for the left to show up to vote. Seriously stay home, those booths are just petri dishes.
     
  10. Surfguy

    Surfguy Contributing Member

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    TRUMP IS DONE! HIS BUNGLING ME ME ME SPEECHES HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP TO HIM.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    This actually what Biden is running on and I think single payer is inevitable.

    Biden’s health-care plan is surprisingly liberal. It goes way beyond the ACA and enrolls millions of people in government health care, including everyone who was denied Medicaid because they live in a Republican hold-out state that refused the ACA’s Medicaid expansion. It auto-enrolls low-income people whenever they have an interaction with the government. It allows anyone, even those with employer-provided insurance, to join a government plan.
     
  12. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Here's the best source - Bernie himself. https://berniesanders.com/issues/

    Free college.

    Student debt forgiveness.


    His housing plan is too expensive - "Nearly" 10 million units at $2.5Trillion , that's $250k per unit. That's greater than the median home cost in the nation. Seem's a bit extravagant if you ask me. These things should be simple and cost effective.

    The total government spending of $150T over 10 years - an additional $10T+ per year as last year the gubmint spent $4.45T which was 20.7% GDP ($21.427T). His average over a decade of $15T would be 70% of 2019 GDP.
    If you don't believe the numbers , just search google to confirm them , the rest is simple math.

    If you think the wealth gap is severe now , just think about how much worse it gets when the pie shrinks by that much - the ultra wealthy are still making the lions share and the rest of the country is left with a few crumbs.
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...n-2019-jeff-bezos-retains-crown/#.XmrqrKhKiUk

    They increased their net worth by 25% in a single year but Bernie's plan is to tax them at 3% ....


    Government employing upwards of 60% of the population in jobs that produce nothing and that is almost impossible to be fired from. The cost is outrageous.

    Don't like his climate change plan - It doesn't force China or India (add Brazil with their rampant deforestation) to make any major changes yet costs us TRILLIONS. There's a much simpler solution to all this technological expense = Plant Tree's - Lots of them. They soak up CO2 and are much more cost effective than attempting to collect and trap it underground .... where there's no guarantee it remains there.

    Hate his immigration plan - not deporting illegals , just incentivizing more. I'm perfectly fine with legal immigration but there have to be limits and those who have committed crimes (particularly violent crimes) need to be sent back from whence they came.

    Tax Tax Tax .... more government that's his answer to everything.

    The one thing I do support in theory is M4A , then again , if I quoted you the numbers ....it becomes questionable at best as there is not only no reduction in cost but an increase instead.
     
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  13. cml750

    cml750 Member

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  14. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    #TrumpAIDS
     
  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I cannot say I am surprised. He has had a lot of unprotected sex with prostitutes and marginal women.

    He was "raw dogging" it with a w**** while his wife's womb was recovering after giving birth to her first son.

    That doesn't even take into account all the rumors of his exploits with Russian water sports, or under aged sex trafficked women with Epstein.

    At this point, if he does have AIDS I hope Ivanka and Tiffany get tested. There are amazing drugs out there if you get diagnosed early enough.

    #thoughts/prayers.
     
  16. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Trump is done like dinner - just shows the rest of the country that having someone PREPARED to lead is better than whatever party they are nominated from, Trump has been the worst President in history, and now many are going to die uneccessarily because he cut back the program that was working on a vaccine for the Corona type of virus families.....well done..DT!

    The "Bye bye boomer" virus is going to be a massive pandemic and it could have been avoided or prepared for.....

    DD
     
  17. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Was this the doctor who allowed trump to dictate his own health report?

    Or was this test administered by the same doctor that somehow misspelled his own name in his report?

     
  18. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Do we need more evidence that @cml750 falls prey to false propoganda?
     
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  19. cml750

    cml750 Member

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  20. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    :rolleyes: Says a guy who fell for the Russia collusion hoax hook, line, and sinker.
     

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