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[OFFICIAL] Elizabeth Warren for President thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    she's just fueling the Trump Train 2020
     
  2. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    It would’ve been better if she said she was thinking of some tax credit for people who honored commitment within four or five year time span.

    Might’ve been helicoptering cash at this point but more politically beneficial than what i just saw
     
  3. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    That's NOT what I said and don't put words in my mouth.

    What I said is that without compensating the debt holder , its essentially theft and wouldn't pass constitutional muster and that the only way to compensate those debt holders would be for The House to appropriate funds.

    Executive Order simply cant erase private debt.

    Now if you want to equate that to bailing out the banks .... that's your ignorance on display.

    And for the record - I was against any of the bailouts / loans / TARP regardless of which President signed them - AIG , Chrysler , GM all should have been allowed to fail and new / start up companies replace them - those companies could have purchased the infrastructure for a fraction of its value / cost.
     
  4. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Boy , you missed the point of that .... by a mile.
     
  5. TheresTheDagger

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    God forbid our political candidates face a tough question.
     
  6. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    strawman there. I like tough questions. Not sure that one’s tough, but she’d already faced it. Still seems like a fantasy to me.
     
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    WSJ editorial

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-meets-an-irate-dad-11579910428?mod=hp_opin_pos_2

    Elizabeth Warren Meets an Irate Dad
    If she’s going to forgive student debt, this voter wants a tuition refund.
    By
    The Editorial Board
    Jan. 24, 2020 7:00 pm ET

    Presidential campaigns always try to stay on script, but the handshake game in early states still offers interesting spontaneity. Case in point: After an Elizabeth Warren event this week in Grimes, Iowa, a voter challenged her plan to forgive student debt.

    It’s all captured on tape. As C-Span’s camera rolls, a man approaches Ms. Warren and says hello: “I just wanted to ask one question. My daughter’s getting out of school. I’ve saved all my money. She doesn’t have any student loans.” Ms. Warren nods and says, “God bless you.”

    Then the shoe drops. “Am I going to get my money back?” the man asks. Ms. Warren has proposed to cancel $640 billion in student loans, up to $50,000 a person. She says this would help 42 million Americans. But there’s no provision to reimburse the millions of others who worked hard, saved money, and put themselves or their children through college.

    “Of course not,” Ms. Warren replies. The man gets agitated. “So you’re going to pay for people who didn’t save any money,” he says, “and those of us who did the right thing get screwed.” He continues: “My buddy had fun, bought a car, went on vacations. I saved my money. He made more than I did, but I worked a double shift, worked extra. My daughter’s worked since she was 10.”

    It’s a tense but revealing moment about politics and personal responsibility in a democracy. As far as we know, the man hasn’t identified himself, so there’s no way to guess if he supports a different candidate or was intentionally aiming for a viral video. In any event, he’s now all over the news, in a way that is forcing Ms. Warren to respond.

    On Friday morning she was asked about the clip on CBS. “We build a future going forward by making it better,” she said. “By that same logic what would we have done? Not started Social Security because we didn’t start it last week for you, or last month for you?”

    That answer might work with Democratic crowds, but it ignores the man’s point about unfairness and the total dysfunction in student loans. The government subsidizes debt, colleges raise their prices, students are told to get more degrees, credential inflation kicks in, and taxpayers eat the losses. Ms. Warren’s proposals would make such problems worse. The political press might not care, but fathers who saved for their children in Iowa do.
     
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  8. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Everyone knows that person was making a bad faith argument and not really a Warren supporter. Warrens proposals are just that .... proposals. Yes tough questions come with the territory with bold ideas, but this question and fake outrage is over the top staged for a gotcha more than an in good faith discussion of the objective of the proposal.

    The objective of a proposal like this is to help solve the debt crisis with American families. Taking out more debt at the federal level paid by American families via taxes doesn’t make sense. It’s subbing one debt for the other. However if you can shift the burden on the federal government by replacing one area of debt for another so the government debt is stagnant but the American Families can relieve that debt in their household without increasing costs or taxes in this case.... that is a good idea and will help drive the consumer based economy.

    The objective is the subject of the discussion or it should be. I hope voters are smarter than to fall for these bad faith arguments or fall for the corporate media’s bad faith attempts in their “How are you going to pay for it” fake outrage that they never ask a Republican.
     
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  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I wonder if WW2 veterans have a right to be pissed for not having their full tuition and board paid for like modern veterans. We shouldn't have created the post 9/11 GI bill. It ain't fair to the veterans before us.


    What about slavery? Is it fair to all those slaves who had to suffer an entire life of being a slave and no you make it illegal? Is that fair to those slaves who didn't have a chance to be freed?
     
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  10. HTM

    HTM Member

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    lame analogies that aren’t analogous at all and of course, just like Warren, massively dismissive and condescending to hard working people who have done the right thing and because of it will be massively poorer of the course of their lives. Your attitude and Warrens that it, “sucks to suck” is not going to play well and it won’t for Bernie either.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Those WW2 vets did the right thing. They didn't get their tuition and board paid for. Modern vets do. It's not fair to those vets before us.


    The logic deserves to be ridiculed. It's a line of bad faith logic that prevents any progress.

    Please, your concern trolling is pathetic. The previous president won by being 100× the divisive edgelord ******* that Warren or Bernie are. You expect Warren to completely reverse her policy proposals because of one guy expressing angst towards it? Seriously? Is that what you actually expected?

    How many politicans that you have more favorable opinions of relative to Warren and Bernie dismissed the countless town hall attendees that cried literal tears over losing health coverage because those politicans they were crying to advocated to remove pre-existing conditions? Where is your outrage for that? Why aren't you outraged over their dismissive behavior?
     
    #1491 fchowd0311, Jan 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  12. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Your analogies, like all of the lame student debt analogies obviously aren’t analagous and don’t hold up.

    It doesn’t prevent progress. All you’re talking about it spending money. Bernie/Warren can find $60 trillion for everything under the sun but not for the folks who will be massively poorer over the course of their life because they did the right thing and paid back their loans? Anything to say to those folks?

    I expect Warren or Bernie to at least have the decency to say “I hear you” and “maybe we can do something for those folks lets talk about it/ look into it” instead of laugh in their face and say, “no of course not” - aka “sucks to suck” - You’re going to be creating a lost generation of people who will be incredibly poorer compared to the people who come after them but screw them right? Trillions for everything else but not for that lost generation?

    I’m here to discuss that subject. Not any shifting goalposts topics you want to talk about because you cannot talk about this topic.
     
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Not only do modern vets get their full tuition paid for but they also recieve E-5 BAH housing pay for the months they attend school. In my zip code for the school I attended, BAH housing pay was 2800 dollars a month. They literally threw money at me to go to school. Not only was my tuition free but I got 2800 dollars a month in income just for attending.

    That isn't fair to older vets that worked their asses of fighting a more gruesome war in regards to WW2.


    The thing about claiming that my analogies are bad is that you have to give some reasons why besides just telling me they are bad if you want a cordial conversation.

    What about the slaves who had to endure an entire lifetime of slavery and died as slaves? Is it fair to them that the next generation of slaves were freed?

    Explain how the father's logic isn't the same here?

    Why should someone who wants to be a computer engineer need to go into 50 thousand dollars in debt? If they can complete that degree with a passing gpa, that means they earned their way to being educated in computer engineering. Now why should society punish them by forcing them to have 400 dollar a month payments just to be educated in a endeavor worthwhile to society?
     
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  14. HTM

    HTM Member

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    I put as much effort into dismissing your analogies as you did explaining them. One liners. I guess you don't have to put any work in to explain how the analogies are apt and it's on me to actually take time to explain how they aren't?

    Fine, It won't take long.

    Slavery - nobody can give someone who suffered bondage that time back. Those who paid student loans paid them overwhelmingly to the federal government. The government can give them their money back. Why is that an untenable position? Bernie and Warren promise ten's of trillions for everything under the sun but not for that?

    WW2 Vets - I don't feel totally comfortable comparing GI bill benefits from 1946 - the modern era but as I'm sure you know, the cost of education since 1946 - 1950 or so compared today is massively different. I know WW2 GI's received at least a certain level of benefits and if they were responsible for the remainder, how much was that? Is your assertion that that modest sum is anything compared to modern student loan payers? Disingenuous at best. We know people who paid their loans in the modern era have very commonly paid sums that will equal 100's of thousands or millions of dollars worth of retirement money. Absolutely massively life changing sums, which because they did the right thing and paid them, instead of just sitting on them, will be massively poorer over the course of their life compared to those who didn't pay them or those who happened to be born a few years later? So, what you and others are saying is sucks if you're born in '91 you get to be massively poorer compared to someone born in '00. Get over it. Sucks to suck.

    Also, who said we shouldn't be willing to look at that for those vets?

    I'm happy to look at ways to rein in the cost of college. I don't think it's right to laugh in peoples faces, members of a "lost generation", who paid their loans or paid for their children and because so will be massively poorer over the course of their life compared to those who come after.

    But yea, be condescending and dismissive of them. Laugh in their face. Good stuff. Great stuff.

    All we are talking about is money. Reimburse those people. You advocate every type of entitlement to the tune of 10's of trillions but suddenly we "can't afford that"? Fascinating.
     
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    I still don’t know how “tough” a question is when it is quickly answered with two words: of course.

    Suggests question was just a rhetorical comment, which is fine and good.
     
  16. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I guess you didn't read the part about bah. WW2 vets didn't receive a housing allowance when they attended school. Like I said, today a student using the post 9-11 GI bill recieves a housing allowance on top of their tuition being free. In the school I attended, the allowance was 2800 dollars a month during the school year so roughly 7 months out of the year. So that's roughly 19600 dollars a year and assuming 4 years for completion, that is roughly 78000 dollars paid in housing allowance to each modern veteran that WW2 vets did not receive.

    How is that fair to WW2 vets who had to work their way through college and not receive what was equivalent of 78000 dollars during their era?
     
  17. HTM

    HTM Member

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    I addressed the GI bill. If you refuse to ignore everything I write and try to take this conversation down a rabbit hole of your making. I won’t participate.
     
  18. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    No you didn't. You addressed what you percieve to be the advantages modern vets have compared to WW2 vets in terms of cost of tuition without taking account the almost 6 figure advantage that modern vets have with the housing allowance. It's evident when you state that student loans have cost 6 figures for many people implying that the post 9/11 go bill doesn't provide near the same amount in monetary advantage.

    The post 9/11 GI bill provides 36 months of coverage. 36x2800 is 100,800 dollars in benefits tax free that modern vets recieve that WW2 vets didn't.

    That isn't a petty amount. Hell it's more than the average amount of debt from student loans a individual carries.
     
  19. HTM

    HTM Member

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    You still refuse to ignore all the questions I’ve posed which are real issues to the current electorate but you expect me to go down this rabbit hole? Na.
     
  20. HTM

    HTM Member

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    Well it blew up in her face and it will in Bernies too.
     

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