Who faced tougher defenders/defenses? Jordan or Harden? Debate/Poll

„Even melo” yet even Giannis, Jokic, Donivan Mitchell etc all look like **** in Fiba rn. Maybe Anthony wasnt as bad skillwise as you think

 

Sure, but it doesnt make him the better offensive player, MJ was the better mid range shooter and slasher AND probably playmaking and shot creator.

Actually, Russ does have an argument about playmaking. Russ is actually one of the best passer's in the league. That being said you are still confusing playmaking with just passing, its not like that. Playmaking is about creating efficient scoring opportunities for others. Again, listen to Ben Taylor's podcast and look at what he uses, like Box creation and youd understand. Not to mention, Harden actually isnt that great of a passer in transition. Harden is probably a top 10 playmaker but when you check the numbers(Playoffs) MJ might be better. Will see where Harden is at the end of his career, but statistically MJ is better(if you like the way Ben Taylor presented his argument that is), MJ is better. And there you go again, comparing eras like that, you have to judge them on how they competed against their competition.

Per 100 in the playoffs so far.....

MJ 32.5 FGA and 12.8 FTs for 43.3 points which is 56.78 TS%

JH(in Houston) 26.7 FGA and 12.1 FTs for 36.5 point which 56.99 TS%

Okay whoops, my bad lol. Lol 7 more points a game for a career playoff average on the same efficiency(in an era that did not emphasize the three point line) blows him out of the water. It doesnt matter if he had more attempts, that's actually in his favor. If you can provide more points on the same efficiency, that's a lot better. So scoring wise, he is not on MJ's level AT ALL.

Lebron is, Harden is not. You are basing that off raw assists numbers and eye test, which isnt good enough for me

He still underperformed on the biggest stage with best teammates he's ever had. Dont think if you put MJ in his place that it would go down like that.

How? He led on the league in RPM that year. He had 40 10 with like little turnovers in an elimination games, there were games he out performed Harden. Dont tell me he wasnt elite. We won 65 games with him and almost took the Warriors with KD down. He was absolutely on Pippen's level. Cp's playmaking is on another level than Pippen's and his defense is also great too, I dont know how different it would have been, besides the injury thing which Harden did not help in game 5.

Okay then it should be pretty clear who the better player was offensively. Agreed there.

 

Don't be stupid.

 

everytime I see stuff like this can't help but think back to 40 year old manu ginobilli blocking harden on a game winner for the spurs to win series. That happened when the spurs was basically on the decline and before the spurs team broke up.

 

when you start over praising the defenders then you start sounding like a tony romo apologist! Are you a tony romo apologist!?

 

Harden is another level then Russ and CP as a player so anyone trying to make an argument on that front is downright delusional. Harden is a far better playmaker then Russ especially in the half court sets and a far better overall player then Paul.However when you factor Jordan into the equation then no. MJ is the GOAT.

 

Exactly Euro is much easier than the NBA.

 

You have to look at who he's passing to. Harden didnt have the teammates Jordan did. This is a team that made it to the second round without Jordan. Not one of Hardens teams would have ever done that. Last years team wouldnt even have made the playoffs.

 

Yes he was. Why is my agrument less sufficient? Because im relying on stats and the correct definition of playmaking while you are using raw assists,eye tests(lol) numbers and not comparing what the players did relative to their era. Ben Taylor is one of the best basketball mind in the game today. He's done more research on ball than you or I ever have. He uses stats and film to make his analysis. I've always thought that Harden was better, but when I listened to his podcast and watched his video on Russ, it's not necessarily the case that Harden is a better playmaker. No stat is perfect, but it's much muuuch better than relying on your eye tests or raw assists numbers.

No, that's a misunderstanding. Playmaking is not purely passing ability or else I would have agreed with you. I'll say it again PLAYMAKING IS CREATING EFFICIENT SCORING OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUR TEAMMATES. And honestly who cares if that model doesnt tell you how well you their "technical ability" thats not what we are measuring. Decision making while important, is far far less important than the VALUE you create by giving your teammates scoring opportunities.

Yea Harden is amazing for box creation in the REGULAR SEASON. His playmaking dips heavily in the playoffs That's what he was taking into account in his podcast, he made a point to note about Harden to take into account the discrepancy he has between the Regular Season and the Post Season. Not to mention, his model also is using "relative box creation" so that they take into account how well they played relative to their era. That's how you should be comparing players to begin with.

Does it matter? He provided more points on the same efficiency, it doesnt matter what he "could have" done. It probably would not, we've seen Harden dip considerably(still really good though) in the post season while MJ raised his level. In the regular season Harden was notorious for that, but in the POs you cant say for sure that's true, in fact we have more evidence to the contrary. And once again, you have to compare players relative to their era.

Raw assists numbers and eye tests arent good enough and in the playoffs tell a different story with the box creation stat for Harden.

Im talking about KD and Westbrook(collectively of course, I think peak Cp is better than Russ).

Yea you didnt, my bad. He was though. I think scoring wise, Cp is better than Pippen, we can agree to disagree there. As for rebouding and defense I would agree. But I dont think Pippen could run a high level offense like Cp could. I also think Cp's defensive impact is underrated. Harden shot absolutely awful the whole game, Cp was amazing in the second half of that game. Harden is the best player, there was more responsibility on him to perform....or at least shoot much better than he did. If he performed to even his average, CP might not have gotten hurt.

Disagree, I think its definitely MJ.

 

One thing that i think younger fans forget is that us old heads actually watched both eras that you refer to. Nothing is wrong with my memory or my eyes.

I hate this debate because as a die hard Rockets fan I love Harden. I hate to have to argue against him in particular, so let me try this approach.

Jordan was drafted in what i think you may consider to be the dark ages. players didn't seem as fast or athletic as some of the younger players you see today. So i will concede that not everyone from that era could survive in this era. But there were and have always been exceptions.

Jordan was 6'6 with a 48 inch vertical. When Andrew Wiggins was drafted he had the highest recorded vertical at i believe 43.5 inches. Zion's vertical is 46 inches. So at 6'6, when you look at the quickness of his first step, in in-air acrobatics ect, he would still be the most athletic player in the NBA today. So the whole notion that he would not be able to score or get his shot off off in today's NBA is laughable.

I have had this argument with my son's AAU coach on several occasions. He tells me that Jordan, Dream, even Shaq would barely make all star teams now, which i think is insane.

If Jordan, Shaq, or Dream were all 19-20 years old in 2019 they would all be the hands down #1 pick even today. Would you draft Zion over Jordan?

How about Ayton,Fultz, Ben Simmons, KAT, Wiggins or our very own Anthony Bennett? Those are the last 7 #1 overall picks, and I have to tell you that that no GM in their right mind would Draft any of the those guys over the previous 3 that i listed much less MJ.

Marc Gasol has never been a great athlete, but a few years ago he was considered to be the best defensive big in the NBA. He does not have half of the raw athleticism, quickness, speed or instincts that Dream had but he can still dominate defensively, even in this new NBA. If Gasol played in the 80's or 90's and you saw him on YouTube I guarantee you that you would think he was too slow and non athletic to play today. I could apply the same logic to players like CP, who i am certain that had he have played in the 80's you would said he was to small and didn't jump high enough. You would say that a pg that small could never be first team all defense in the new more highly skilled NBA.

I wonder what you would think of PJ a 6'5 PF who cant jump. Imagine if he played in the 80's or 90's. You would laugh if someone told you that he could be a starter and be effective in 2019. All of this new length and athleticism but smaller, non athletic guys can still dominate.


Some freaks of nature translate to any era. In football Deion Sanders ran close to a 4.2 flat in the 40 yard dash. Bo Jackson was nearly 240 pounds of solid muscle and ran a 4.1 40. No prospect coming out now into the NFL draft compares to those 2 players in terms of both speed and skill. Randy Moss ran a 4.2 at 6'4. They would still be the best at there positions even today, mainly because even though we are 30 years removed from that era, we still don't find talents that special even in this new era. Saquon Barkley is a freak of nature now and he still would be 30 years from now.

Again not everyone from that era could play now, but the special ones could.

in 25-30 year's you will have some young folks telling you that there is no way that Lebron, Harden, Curry, KD ect would never ever survive or get buckets in the "new era". They will have done there YouTube research just as you have. Having actually watched these guys play yourself, I wonder if you will be so quick to dismiss the greats of this era.

On a side note, please watch the Jordan come fly with documentary. It was Jordan before the rings ( i think it came out in 89' or 90'). Watch that and tell me one player in the NBA today who even comes close to that (physically).

 

Harden might be as good as left handed Jordan

 

That left hand would never work in today's game. Those moves and finishes only worked because he didn't have to play against anybody.

Every team in today's NBA has guards who can do that. Don't you realize that some of those highlights are over 30 years old? It doesn't matter unless he can do that against today's top level defenders.

 

He has other things he uses to judge people's passing like shot's created and passer rating, it's not like he doesnt think about those things. And the fact is Harden's playmaking does take a hit in the playoffs. It may not be perfect but it is a stronger than anything you have presented. Also the quality of shots you create for your teammates should absolutely be the top priority in judging a playmaker, how could it not be? You can talk about court vision and those things are important but at the end of the day I think his stat prioritizes the most important aspect by far.

Again, you are comparing eras and not comparing what the players did relative to their competition. It's not like Jordon was out here playing a bunch of bums. There are different rules and the way the game was played was different, so what you are doing doesnt make sense.

Yea, of course passing is important. But passing is different than playmaking. I get what you mean and Im not saying its perfect, but I just dont know how it isnt the MOST important thing. That's the goal here, right? That's what makes you win more. The more you can carve up the defense to get good looks for your guys, than the better your chances are at winning. I think it's pretty difficult to ignore. And it's not like you've taken a look at MJ's full arsenal of passes because you've simply just watched more of Harden, so there is a heavy bias there. And the most important thing is that you havent given me any stronger evidence than what has been provided. Im not trying to be a dick, I just think that while his stat isnt perfect, I think it gives a pretty good idea of who was a better playmaker.

Alright, I this FT thing is a bit stretch here, but I mean if we are gonna go there, it's not like MJ didnt get FTs either, know what I mean.

Couldnt you do the same for MJ, MJ even moved more off the ball than Harden did, so defenses had to account for that. Harden takes the majority of them off the dribble. But lets be real here, both MJ and Harden both did the majority of their damage with the rock in their hands, its not like we are comparing them to Steph Curry(who also has an argument as one of the better play makers in NBA history(not as good as Harden imo but he is elite).

By what metric??? You're eye test....raw assists numbers? Here we are again man. We are just gonna go in circles.

Plus minus for one game, doesnt mean a whole lot to me. And I know what happend, Im not saying it's his fault Cp got injured. But had Harden played average game(might be unfair but he is the undisputed best player on the team) than we win that game comfortably and we have Cp for at least one more game. He shot 1-11 from 3 man, that's really bad. Honestly I hate doing this, cause I also hate arguing against Harden. I know he has it in him to give us an amazing PO runs.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just disagree on the playmaking and better offensive player part.

 

MJ was tested at 45.76" vertical at UNC in 83