1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Let’s settle this: MJ or Harden?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by JW86, Aug 17, 2019.

?

Better scorer?

  1. Harden

    22.1%
  2. Michael Jordan

    65.3%
  3. Too hard to decide

    1.4%
  4. Too close to call

    3.2%
  5. Refrain from choosing

    8.1%
  1. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    i took it as meaning Harden goes in looking to draw the foul... bc its the highest efficiency rate and all...
    Whereas MJ went looking to score the bucket - and if the call happened - so be it...

    Personally I have greater respect for the guy trying to score the bucket - than the one trying to draw the foul... bc he's not making his success dependent on the refs...

    and yes, MJ got alot of 'superstar calls'..

    ...jus sayin...
     
    DaDakota, studogg and JW86 like this.
  2. rockets1995

    rockets1995 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,269
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Daryl Morey as a Young Cleveland Cavalier Fan saw Michael Jordan Game Winning Shot over Ehlo.

    Still bitter, huh Daryl
     
  3. JW86

    JW86 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    6,796
    Likes Received:
    8,929
    Exactly! Finally someone willing to admit it. With regards to Morey, sure he wants media attention, but don’t ever doubt that Morey actually believes this. This thread is just to get all the nonsense like the Iggy disagreeing with Morey thread.
     
    Purvis2Short and kjayp like this.
  4. dc rock

    dc rock Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    11,897
    Remember when Dream celebrated Ramadan by rejecting Jordan and demolishing the Bulls on an empty stomach?

    [​IMG]

    As for the question set before me: IDK.
     
    don grahamleone and Exiled like this.
  5. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 1999
    Messages:
    97,518
    Likes Received:
    40,150
    Exactly
    Morey did this now everyone talking about it

    Smart guy
     
    Patience and napalm06 like this.
  6. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    oh its been said numerous times... there's just a large contingency that argue that since a foul call is the most 'efficient' way of scoring that its the more 'intelligent' way to play... Of course those folks never factor in the number of turnovers that happen when somebody doesnt get the call - deserved or not....
    Of course, there are also 'fans' who support flopping - straight up faking contact as a means of scoring... personally, I consider that to be cheating... but some are all right with that... smh...

    and Murray... Murray is just working the angles... its sad but in todays world its all about trolling for clicks and branding over substance and gaming the system... maybe its always been that way - but folks are more blatant about it now... (not to get political, but heck we got a prez that trolls everyone 24/7 - and thats coming from a conservative... lol)
     
    JW86 likes this.
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,136
    Likes Received:
    35,937
    Morey is asking for Harden to be a punching bag in the media.
     
  8. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    26,225
    Likes Received:
    29,304
    I would argue that statement is true. I would also argue that the Spurs (e.g. Parker/Ginobili) were doing it long before Harden was around. But they won Championships, so they were doing it "honorably", right?

    Btw, based on usage, there are other players in the same realm as Harden or sometimes ahead of him in foul shots (like Embiid & Antentokounmpompmou).

    Seeeems to me like the NBA officiating is what could use some fixing. Heck, Lebron gets away with murder. The year Wade beat the Mavs, he did it at the foul line. Officiating doubled down to rescue the Warriors in games 6 & 7 in 2018. Kevin Martin used to get a decent amount of foul calls playing way softer than Harden plays.

    Harden shouldn't be the lightning rod of hate for everyone.
     
  9. javal_lon

    javal_lon Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    10,910
    Likes Received:
    8,693
    Blaspemous!
     
  10. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    I'm in no way saying that Harden has any exclusivity to such actions... its far too common... Harden just does it better than most - as with most things he does...

    I've had the argument with folks here on CF numerous times... when i'd complain that when Harden used to drive he would almost immediately throw his arms up and flail (without or prior to contact...) or the way he used to hook the defender as they were coming off a screen and then just heave the ball to try and get the call... I always hated such tactics... but the lil Morey statistician contingency would put forth the return on 2 or 3 free throws vs any other play and call it more intelligent...

    Generally, I would expect a player who plays down low to get fouled more than a perimeter shooter... generally...

    I def think the league needs to look at officiating... eliminate the bias and the 'superstar calls' and eliminate the offensive player being rewarded for initiating the contact... so not ragging on harden - he's just playing the course - and doing it very well... more of commentary on the league than Harden...

    As a sidenote, I wasnt happy when we got CP3... I always hated him bc he was a flopper... and to be clear, there's a diff between playing up actual contact - and trying to trick the officials into believing contact happened when it didnt... His whole jerking his head back and crumpling to the ground without ever being touched was deplorable... that should be a suspension imo...
     
    don grahamleone and JW86 like this.
  11. Hassan Abdul-Ahmed

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    12
    prefer arguments of better overall player both sides of court and to me MJ without doubt is a way superior overall player than harden
     
  12. JW86

    JW86 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    6,796
    Likes Received:
    8,929
    You’re on fire @kjayp and on the money. It’s the league, officiating, but also on the player. Harden jumping differently when a player is near to get a foul call is a thing.

    Hell, he almost blew that game winner @ GS when he tried to sell the contact. The fact that he’s so good makes his reliance so annoying.

    Hated that hooking the arm, head snap back and all that. I’m glad as a Rockets fan Harden is targeted and causing rule changes, but officiating still gives him the bullshit calls and then totally ignores when he clearly gets fouled.

    It starts with the officiating but ends with the player. Watching Harden play without the antics is a thing of beauty. With the baiting, leg kicking, neck whiplash and falling on the floor I’m not down with.

    Definitely agree with CP3, I tried to ignore the little man syndrome but never loved him as a Rocket. Glad he’s gone and his antics too, though he toned it down. Now Harden needs to man up and look at Westbrook.
     
    kjayp likes this.
  13. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,153
    Likes Received:
    12,299
    Having watched both closely. Harden


    Jordan was the more athletic and could soar through the air with greater ease; but Harden is the better shooter.

    Both shot around 10 FT’s a game.

    Jordan faced hand checking (& then league took away hand checking to help open the game/Jordan).....Help
    defense had players staying close to their assignments which allowed enough space for the athletic Jordan.
    Help defense had to commit and not allowed to go back and forth (staying in the middle like playing zone).

    Difficult, but ...

    Harden faces more zones and/or intelligent help defenses where teams can rotate to help leaving poor
    shooters open by way of advanced scouting and analytics.

    Defense goes to Jordan. More rings goes to the player with more help around him.....this is not singles
    tennis we are talking about. Team sport B*****s!!

    Don’t @ me....just my opinion.
     
  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,136
    Likes Received:
    35,937
    It's a pretty stupid opinion. You are also missing so many other areas that Jordan is far superior in.

    Harden falls apart when he loses his dribble. Kobe and Jordan had amazing moves without the dibble. They were far more versatile scorers. Harden has a variety of moves from the dribble to get by defenders but after that he's a straight line driver. Not much creativity after he beats his man.
     
  15. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    70,459
    Likes Received:
    114,289
    Harden is always going to be a punching bag. It won't matter if Morey stays quiet or not. That defense video made sure of that.

    Say what you will about the Harden/MJ comparisons, but Morey's IDGAF attitude is hilarious. He lobs these bombs so casually and watches everyone (fans, media, nba) melt down around him.

    Some of us need to adopt that IDGAF attitude. Get your swag up.
     
    #35 DreamShook, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
    Killatron 2000 likes this.
  16. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,136
    Likes Received:
    35,937
    This makes it worse. Trust me. Look at neutral NBA fan sites like reddit. Harden actually at times has favorable threads about him but when Morey says stupid **** like this, Harden bashing gets into full swing. Morey is drawing more hate towards Harden unnecessarly. He sounds like a hype man where the talent wants they hype man to calm the **** down.
     
  17. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    43,147
    Likes Received:
    25,187
    Prime Jordan always had Scottie to pick him up.

    Prime Harden always had Treasures to pick him up.

    The verdict?
     
  18. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    I do think Harden has 'cleaned up' his game considerably - and I give him props for that!

    I appreciate his ability to trick the defender into actually fouling him to be a far better look than trying to trick the official into making a bad call...

    its just always concerning when you see a player (any player) playing for the call rather than the bucket... bc at that point you're putting your hopes in the hands of the officials - rather than your player or team...
     
    noppeper, don grahamleone and JW86 like this.
  19. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,153
    Likes Received:
    12,299
    You are an idiot.

    Kukoc shot 34% from 3
    Longley shot 0% from 3
    Rodman shot 23% from 3
    Ron Harper shot 29% from 3
    Oakley shot 25% from 3
    Horace Grant shot 6% from 3
    Easy to lay off guys with advanced scouting and pack the paint so Jordan had no room to operate.

    Could Jordan play with today’s “freedom of movement” rule yes......but Harden would be successful in Jordan’s era as well.
     
  20. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    70,459
    Likes Received:
    114,289
    Reddit is not a neutral NBA fan site, fans on r/nba have hated Harden for a LONG time. Ever since Harden has dissected the game to gain an advantage, casual fans have never acknowledged him as a great without an asterisk. Even big NBA fans don't like to acknowledge what he has done.

    Harden will NEVER be appreciated until he wins a ring; it's futile to hope the hoard will give him his due until then. I think wishing people in the Rockets camp to shut their mouths hoping and praying everyone else will suddenly love the Rockets is dumb and too insecure for my tastes.

    I hope Morey continues to run his mouth and hype the hell out of Harden, because no one else will. You think Harden doesn't agree with the stuff Morey is saying? Harden is just not boastful and doesn't get into the back and forth of it all.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now