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Vaccines

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Lurch, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Lurch

    Lurch Live Wilder.

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    Is it though? A study from 2015 shows that the number of unvaccinated children had quadrupled since 2001. How many children do you see dying or suffering from preventable diseases? With number growing that heavily, I guarantee you are around unvaccinated children and adults every single time you go into public. It’s a lot more common than you think.

    How dangerous is it really? The news will have you believe that measles is going to wipe out humanity because of all of these outbreaks but there still hasn’t been 1 death from measles since 2001.

    People claim there is no science that shows that vaccines can be harmful, yet they are full of ingredients that are known neurotoxins. I’m supposed to just buy that this is nothing to worry about and just continue to vaccinate myself and my children with no question?
     
  2. Sajan

    Sajan Member

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    You can't just go from mandating vaccines because of protecting an entire population to abortion. Vaccines are something majority of the population agrees with and has scientific merits. Abortion is a whole different topic and I do not want to get into that.

    It's all fun and games until your kid is home with measles because of juice cleanse mom over here didn't believe in the MMR vaccine.
     
  3. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Yes you can. It doesn't matter what is popular with the majority of the population or not, the government doesn't have the right to enforce things on our bodies. Lets make that a fundamental law.

    It's all fun and games until we are into year 3 of Trump's hypothetical re-election, 65% of the country is full-on MAGA and support full bans on abortions outright... oh and perhaps like @Rocket River mentioned, Trump also demands we all get microchipped to separate the pure USA born from the "illegal infestations".

    You say you don't want to get into that, and that it's a different topic, but you have to, and it's not. Your perceived current public or scientific merits, morals, and opinions on what's okay or not today mean nothing tomorrow in the world of politics and government. IMO we absolutely cannot put such personal liberties on the table. That could very well lead to a dystopian nightmare, especially leading into the new world of biohacking that we are entering.
     
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  4. Sajan

    Sajan Member

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    More recently, measles cases and measles deaths in the United States include:
    • 2000 – 86 cases – 1 measles death (infant) – endemic spread of measles eliminated in U.S.
    • 2001 – 116 cases – 1 measles death
    • 2002 – 44 cases
    • 2003 – 55 cases – 1 measles death (1 year old)
    • 2004 – 37 cases – record low number of measles cases
    • 2005 – 66 cases – 1 measles death (1 year old)
    • 2006 – 55 cases
    • 2007 – 43 cases
    • 2008 – 140 cases
    • 2009 – 71 cases – 2 measles deaths
    • 2010 – 63 cases – 2 measles deaths
    • 2011 – 220 cases
    • 2012 – 55 cases – 2 measles deaths
    • 2013 – 187 cases (large outbreak in New York City – 58 cases)
    • 2014 – 667 cases (the worst year for measles since 1994, including the largest single outbreak since the endemic spread of measles was eliminated – 377 cases in Ohio)
    • 2015 – 188 cases – got off to a strong start with a big outbreak in California – 1 measles death
    • 2016 – 86 cases
    • 2017 – 120 cases
    • 2018 – 372

    I am going to assume you have an organic farm in your backyard where you grow all the nutritious food you feed your children that's free of any toxins or harmful substance..and have special air just for them to breath. Give me a break.
     
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  5. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Now your attacking/belittling organic farming systems, nutritious food, home gardening/farming, and concern for air quality? Now you're just beggin for a fight with me!!! :mad:
     
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  6. Sajan

    Sajan Member

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    Bro. Calm down.
    1. I didn’t quote you and neither was I responding to u.
    2. Reading comprehension is key.
     
  7. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    It was mostly a joke lol. I'm just sayin don't tear down sustainable natural farming techniques, home gardening, nutritious food, parents concern for their children's intake of pesticide residue and poor air quality just to take him down, all of those things are great and aren't meant to be used to **** on someone with, there just has to be another way breh!

    As for the number of measles deaths, obviously that's terrible, any death, especially with such young children is heartbreaking and we should do our best to eliminate it entirely. I'm still entirely against mandated vaccines at birth, but we should definitely do all that we can within reasonable means.

    There's also a lot more I'd like to know about those stats, like how many of the deceased were vaccinated. Measles isn't something an unvaccinated body magically produces, they have to get it from others, and it is possible for kids with measles vaccines to get measles from other kids with measles vaccines. Vaccines aren't 100% effective and in a country of 330 million people, I believe it's still possible to have outbreaks within the margins of ineffectiveness. To give an example on the rarity of 11 across nearly 20 years, 50 people per year die from being struck by lightning PER YEAR.

    Of course, I'm not comparing those directly, as measles outbreaks can grow infinitely, and lightning strikes can't, I'm just pointing out how rare it is currently.

    There's also the reality, that a small number of children may be dying every year from allergic or adverse reactions to vaccines. These statistics are hard to find, likely because many more diseases are prevented with vaccines, and they don't want to scare the public away from vaccines. But the reality is, that there may very well be over 10+ children dying per year from vaccine-related injuries. I promise I'm not going full anti-vax science on you and saying that cause autism, but I'm saying there are adverse reactions that can be fatal.

    https://www.politifact.com/punditfa...dc-statistics-say-about-vaccine-illnesses-in/
     
  8. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    You go look at the harms and death caused by diseases that have been suppressed by vaccines and you do not want to go back to those numbers. Of course we will never get back to that level since at least some % of the population will always be vaccinated.

    But those that can be vaccinated but chooses not to are risking breaking herd immunity, which is what have kept the whole population (unvaccinated, inadequately vaccinated, vaccinated - highly effective but not 100%) safe. Once enough people chooses to not vaccinate (roughly 20% but is dependent on the disease), the herd immunity starts to break down. The vast majority of community aren’t there yet but in some community we are already there, and we have already seen those community throughout the US and others western democracy having “small” outbreaks of diseases that were suppose to be history in western countries over the last few years.

    I have my concerns with vaccines when I read everything I can about them, but looking at the bigger picture and weighting risk vs rewards, there is really no contest. Vaccination is the way to go. I do wish the medical community understands the fear and are flexible in scheduling of when vaccines are administrated. For example, many parents are concerns with so many vaccines in such a short period of time (1st 2 years), and some simply opt out due to that fear. Better late than never.
     
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  9. Duncan McDonuts

    Duncan McDonuts Contributing Member

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    There's something in the scientific world called an LD50. It stands for Lethal Dose 50%, meaning the required dose to kill the median population. Everything has an LD50%. If you are someone who uses the word "chemicals" to imply something is dangerous to you, you are an idiot. Everything is a chemical. Your body can take and filter out neurotoxins. It does it all the time. Dosages of neurotoxins in vaccines is nowhere close to harming you.
     
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  10. Lurch

    Lurch Live Wilder.

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    Don’t call me an idiot because I have a different view than you. It’s a bad look.

    You say that but yours and my immune system and bodies may be able to filter out neurotoxins easily but does a newborn or infants body work the same way? No. Any medication you see advertised or a doctor tries to prescribe comes with a long list of reasons you shouldn’t take it and ways it may cause adverse reactions yet vaccines are made by the same companies but they are okay for everybody?

    To make things clear, I am not anti vaccine. I just think that people failing to question the legitimacy of vaccines and sweeping specific things under the rug is ridiculous. There are people who have negative reactions to this stuff everyday yet it’s “idiotic” to not vaccinate.
     
  11. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    The autism link was junk science.

    But there are links to epilepsy and seizures. There is a case to be made on waiting on certain vaccines to a certain age and avoiding some such as Gardasil. The science isn't 100%

    But yes overall, it's wise to get most vaccines.

    Some people argue the flu vaccine is not worth it, and again that's a grey area. There is some risk to it, and lately the vaccine hasn't been that effective.
     
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  12. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Yo, we got to let natural selection takes it’s course.
     
  13. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

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    Failing to question the legitimacy of vaccines? There's decades and decades worth of evidence that they're legit and work extraordinarily well. Diseases that used to ravage the population have been almost completely wiped out. Yes, there are people that have negative reactions. The number of those people is statistically insignificant (less than .003% per the WHO). The good FAR outnumbers the bad. I will take a .003% chance that I or my children will not have to suffer from measles, rubella, polio, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. I'll also take that chance to help make sure that those that can't are safe around my kids and I.

    Unless you know that you or your child will be harmed by vaccinating, it is idiotic not to vaccinate.
     
  14. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Cause everyone else who commented is an expert right?
     
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  15. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    In case anybody cares -

    The Andrew Wakefield study in the Lancet that kicked this whole thing off involved 12 kids and he literally made up results. The whole thing started because he was paid several hundred thousand dollars by a lawyer who was trying to sue the makers of the MMR vaccine. Of course Wakefield kept this fact secret and it didn't come out until years later. He had also patented an alternate measles-only vaccine right before publishing and had set up a company and was seeking investors and was promoting it as a multi-million pound opportunity.

    Before there was evidence that he faked all of his results, his hospital offered to pay the full costs of doing a larger full study. Wakefield agreed at first, but when it came time to actually follow through, Wakefield started to bluster about academic freedom and completely refused.

    At this point people started to look at his tiny 12 person study and contacted the people studied which was where they discovered that he'd literally made up all the results. At this point the Lancet retracted the study with a huge public apology and his hospital started the process that resulted in his medical license being revoked.

    Wakefield then fled to the US to Austin, where he has become a regular on Infowars, and he makes a living promoting himself and telling paranoiacs and distraught parents about the dangers of vaccines. He has no license to practice medicine. He literally made up all of his findings. His only income comes from speaking engagements and books.

    The entire modern antivaxer movement is built on results in a tiny study with results that nobody can replicate that have been proven to be faked by by a disgraced former gastroenterologist with no training in immunology working several get-rich-quick scams in parallel.
     
    #55 Ottomaton, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  16. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    What if your views are idiotic?
     
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  17. Lurch

    Lurch Live Wilder.

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    Show me the science that vaccinated people are healthier than unvaccinated people as a whole. If my views are idiotic, it shouldn’t be hard to find.

    Again, I think vaccines are a great thing, but I don’t agree that they are safe for everyone and I don’t agree that they are the sole factor in the eradication of some diseases we no longer see. Did they contribute? Yes. I never said they didn’t or that they can’t. But other factors are at play as well.

    People also state, “if your kid is unvaccinated keep them away from mine because they are dangerous!” Which is ridiculous as well. Just because my kid isn’t vaccinated doesn’t mean they are carrying polio and measles and whooping cough just waiting to spread it. If you don’t get the flu vaccine, that doesn’t mean you automatically have the flu.

    In fact, it can be the opposite. Vaccine inserts even state that if you receive the vaccine, you need to stay away from those with weakened immune systems because you are carrying a live virus for a set amount of time.

    Everyone has different views on health and wellness, obviously. I’m not going to call people idiotic for believing in the vaccine schedule put forth by the CDC. But there are different approaches that are effective as well.
     
  18. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

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    This mentality that every thought and idea is equal and must be accepted is idiotic. Some ideas are greater than others.
     
  19. Lurch

    Lurch Live Wilder.

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    Right Michie, so if you have an opposite idea than someone else, yours is greater? Sorry I didn’t realize.
     
  20. malakas

    malakas Member

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    As a child, I personally suffered from one of the worst possible consequences - the real ones not the imaginary like autism- of a live vaccine.

    A severe allergic reaction that caused me iridocyclitis and photosensitivity problems for a whole year . The doctors in the hospital of my small hometown, hadn't even diagnosed it and make the connection because it is so rare for it to happen.

    And even though I have suffered I believe that the state should have the power to enforce vaccination on the population.
    Depending on the country and the antivax population change the measures taken.

    Here in Europe we have large population of gypsies who refuse to even take the trouble to vaccinate their children because they refuse to integrate to a modern society.
    This has caused lethal measles outbreaks all over with many victims.
    It starts from their communities and ends up endangering the population at large.

    In this case, the state should take away their unemployment and all other benefits and refuse to pay them one penny until they stop endangering the population.

    To forbid them to get their children to school would serve little purpose since they would be very happy for that- they can find another excuse to have free child labour.
    As for educating them, this is pointless. These people refuse to integrate for one thousand years.
     
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