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So whose guarding Bron/PG/Kawhi ?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by realonemo, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    If the PnR works, the rim protector is out defending the perimeter. If we don't run it or fail to run it, that's when Green is guarding the interior. Obviously, we failed spectacularly.

    There's a reason Draymond almost entirely denied us that lob all series. It's because we couldn't get the PnR going and all he had to do was deny the lob and force Harden to make a floater over his man repeatedly. The only difference with Green is that he is smart enough to still help contest the shot at times.

    With the Clippers, all 4 other defenders (Kawhi, George, Beverley, Green/Shamet) on the floor are better than the Warriors' 4. The Warriors were not that good defensively and we saw that this year. Raptors and even Bucks were better. If you are thinking the Clippers are going to have problems defending a PnR I think you're in for a huge surprise. They are going to shut teams down with previously unseen dynamism.
     
  2. RocketOrg

    RocketOrg Member

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    That’s a damn good defensive lineup for the Clippers. Shamet was deadly from the outside as a rookie so they’ll also have 4 guys that can knock down the 3 ball.
     
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  3. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    I disagree with this completely. GSW's defense starts first and foremost by taking away the corner 3 and leaving the lob defense to Green, who is able to position himself in between the handler (Harden, CP3, or Rivers) and Capela in a way that makes it hard to determine whether a lob is there or not. This is because Green sags off just enough where he can still recover to contest Capela as a defensive big man. When help defense is involved, he positions himself in a way to allow the help defender to be able to switch over and cover the pass to Capela. This means that both the lob and the corner 3 becomes covered, leaving a floater or kick-out wing 3 if the handler has committed to driving the ball.

    None of this has anything to do with our inability to get the PnR going and everything to do with Green being able to single handedly take away one of the outcomes of our PnR set. If you recall, when Looney / Durant was covering the PnR, the lob became an option again provided Capela was on the court. This was because THEY didn't know how much or when they can afford to sag off Capela to deter the lob while still making sure the corner 3 was not an option.

    Going back to Clippers, PG13, Kawhi, and Bev are good to great perimeter defenders, but none of them have shown to be the elite positional defender that Green is. Think back to how the other teams were forced to try and guard the PnR (to various degrees of success); funnel Harden (handler) into an elite rim protector who stays back to take away the lob by shadowing him. This is again designed to take away the corner three and lob to force the floater or wing 3 and again, only works if you have a good / great perimeter defender and rim protector. This leads back to Clippers. They have the personnel to shadow a handler, but do they have the ability to take away the lob? Until they show otherwise, I don't think they do.

    Now, what GSW was great at was not allowing the PnR to transition into an ISO matchup against Curry / Durant. This forces us to actually go through with the PnR which requires a team defense.
     
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  4. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Who guarded them last year?

    It's about team defense, not individual defense.

    We could have a long 6'9" lock down defender and what would opposing teams do? They'll run pick and roll and force a switch to get a better matchup. That's what the modern offenses do, they dictate the matchups not the defense. That's why Steph Curry got stuck defending Harden so many times over the last couple of years. It wasn't GSW choice, it was the Rockets forcing the matchup.
     
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  5. palmsnbananas

    palmsnbananas Member

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    Yeah prepare for SF's to light us up day in and day out and for every team to outrebound us....
    Oh wait that happened last year too .. smh
     
  6. palmsnbananas

    palmsnbananas Member

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    Um no total garbarge!
    When you switch, now our 6'9 player is now in position to get rebounds instead of eric gordon trying to get rebounds and you can actually win a game, should be fairly obvious to see that.
     
  7. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    To provide additional context, the way our PnR system works is this:
    1. We set a pick on the perimeter to try and isolate out a big or the weak defender
    2. If we are able to ISO the targeted player, then we switch to an ISO possession
    3. If we are unable to transition to ISO, we switch back to our normal PnR setup
    4. We can setup the PnR normally at either the perimeter or the elbow for a traditional setup
    5. This will either result in the opposing defense to attempt the following:
      • Essentially give the handler a free lane off the pick and shadow the handler into rim protection to take away both corner 3's, hopefully lob / drive, and stepback jumper, leaving only the floater and kickout for wing 3 unless we want to dribble out and reset
      • Straight up guard the handler and depending on if they go over or under, contend a shot or drive. This requires the interior D to be prepared for a drive should the defender go over the screen. If they go under, Harden is really good at rising up for a shot and usually drawing a foul in the process.
     
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  8. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    Teams are now running high pick and roll above the circle. If you switch that far from the hoop you aren't in position to rebound. Not to mention that the screener is going to try and make sure that the guy that he screens doesn't go anywhere.

    In most cases, Harden's man get switched to Capela who is a better rebounder than anyone that guards Harden.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. TheSource

    TheSource Member

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    Alligator arms Gordon ? Lol
     
  10. RocketsFido

    RocketsFido Member

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    James Harden, dpoty.

    No one can or needs to guard CP3.
     
  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Sorry but if the big man defender has become the tower commander, it means we failed at initiating this PnR the way we always have. Green should be pinned down at the top and chasing Harden. He would only be able to play that recovery game if the PnR is not being executed crisply. What was taking away our execution was a weak show from their weak side defender which brought the pace to a halt and gave Green time to recover.

    On the Clippers, I'll come back to it later in the season. We can talk all day about our subjective assessment of individuals, but I guarantee you the Clippers will be the best defensive team of the last 3 years in the NBA.
     
  12. PeterKingX

    PeterKingX Member

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    The team should rename Houston Midgets.
     
  13. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    This is completely the wrong way to look at it. The PnR set is so effective because there are multiple outcomes predicated on the response of the defense. It is basically a complicated game of team rock, paper, and scissors. To judge its success or failure based on a single outcome is pretty silly. You are basically saying if the Rockets don't throw scissors and the Warriors paper every single time, then the round was a failure.

    For context, possible scoring outcomes for a PnR set:
    1. Drive to basket for layup / dunk
    2. Drive and kick to corner for 3
    3. Drive and lob / pass to big for layup or dunk
    4. Shoot (or step back and shoot) when defender goes under screen
    5. Pass off pick to rolling big man
    6. Drive and shoot (floater, pop, step back) from midrange
    7. Drive and kick to wing 3
    An elite defending big (or really tall and athletic forward like Giannis) can take away Options 1 and 3. That is basically the Warriors, Bucks, Jazz, and Raptors. Option 2 is highly dependent on help defense and if the team doesn't have an elite big defender, then help has to rotate over or leave the drive options depending on what they want to give up. Assuming they do have an elite big defender, then Harden and typically CP3 are both good enough shooting from the midrange or perimeter to make them pay.

    You assert that when options 1-3 are not available off the PnR, then the possession is a failure. In that case, why does 4-7 exist? Why are almost all our games between those above mentioned ELITE DEFENSIVE teams typically so close? The answer is because not having options 1-3 being available is NOT a failure. Options 4-7 are just as viable in terms of putting up points and therefore just as valuable.

    NOW, where Harden can make his leap going into next season is polishing off his floater to make it money consistently AND utilizing his stop and pop, midrange jumper a lot more. I would love to see a post game from him, but that will take longer to really become effective. Post game is also a lot more tiring, so there is that.
     
    #53 chenjy9, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  14. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    That doesn't make sense. Green wasn't guarding Harden, he was guarding Capela. Capela set the screen on Harden's defender. Who do you think is going to pin down Green? Were you thinking that Green was guarding Harden?

    When Capela sets the pick on Harden's man. Harden is above the screen and Green is below. Look at the picture that I posted just above. Look where Capela's man is (Green would be the guy closest to the foul line). How are you going to pin him down?

    What Green does really well is to mix up what he's doing and he fakes giving you one look and he does something different. Sometimes he comes to pick up Harden, other times he fakes coming to Harden and then falls back to the roller. It's similar to a defensive back giving a QB a certain look and then falling into a different coverage.

    Here's a D'Antoni quote after game 1:

    The Warriors did that by having big men – usually Green – show on screens, but then still get back to Capela, rather than trapping or switching on Harden.

    “Draymond is good about faking out, going back,” Rockets coach Mike D’Antoni said. “I don't think Clint played a normal game. He was lacking a little bit of energy. But it happens. But we'll fix some things and we'll be better.”

    https://www.chron.com/sports/rocket...down-Rockets-center-Clint-Capela-13802533.php
     
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  15. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    I was assuming he meant Harden blows past Green and is trailing.
     
  16. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    But there's still no pindown in that scenario either.
     
  17. Rox>Mavs

    Rox>Mavs Contributing Member

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    Despite the fact that he’s being used for salary matching purposes right now, Shump is one of the better options we have for a wing defender. He did decent for us in the playoffs once he replaced House in the rotation.
     
  18. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That's when you can either argue a single point or provide knowledge on the bigger picture IMO.

    The bigger point I was attempting to address is that if a team can guarantee a specific possession outcome regardless of the type of play, all teams would be spamming that play until kingdom comes. The entire point of a PnR playset (or any playset for that matter) is to provide the offense with multiple outcomes depending on what the team defense responds with rather than "Oh that didn't work. Guess we are boned now!"
     
  19. hcw128

    hcw128 Member

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    hope they miss, then Rockets shoot 3
     

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