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Remember this, we are trying to add two primary stars.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by basketballholic, Jun 18, 2019.

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xiki Contributing Member

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basketballholic said: ↑

rh isn't on my screen.

Worth the cost of our guys and picks????

Half the people here will say no if it gets done. The other half of us will be ecstatic. And we won't actually really know until they play it out.

But this is our time. It's time to go all in if we get two guys. And if we'r got those two guys and they stayed healthy and meshed were a 70 win team.
Click to expand...

"if he needs cash that bad..... hrhcan float a loan for one year." So, what beith 'huhcan'?

I'm not worried about a 70 win team, I need the Rox to be a 16-win team!

#121 xiki, Jun 26, 2019

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Horford is out. He wants too much $.
The chasing two stars boat sank back then.

The Butler SnT to Houston still sails the choppy waters.

#122 ApacheWarrior, Jun 26, 2019

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basketballholic said: ↑

So

I talked to an insider last night.

Don't ask. Im not going to tell. He knows Butler and Butler's agent.

He insisted to me that Jimmy was "opting out because he had to sign a max deal because he needs more money. This is about paying the bills. He's going to opt out and sign a max. There is no way he's going to opt in." (I'm leaving out a lot of stuff he said in the middle here. Just giving you the bookends of the conversation.)

I tried to reason with him but he cut me off. Wouldn't even allow me to lay numbers out. He talks to Jimmy's agent all the time. He's friends with Jimmy's agent. Jimmy is opting out because he needs money now!

So I'm putting this out here for several reasons. Let's see if it happens. This is a legit insider. If i named this person many of you know who he is and you would say, "Oh yeah, he's definitely an insider."

My perspective: I have no doubt Jimmy's agent said this. I don't doubt for a minute he's got to pay the bills, etc. I am 100% convinced Jimmy's agent told his personal friend this. And i can easily see that Butler is living a very lavish lifestyle when you consider his take home pay, etc.

But here's the facts:

Based on a $109 million cap number for 19-20 and a $118 million cap number for 20-21 and holding at $118 million cap for 21-22

1. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 5- year max deal in Philly he'll make $189.66 over 5 years.

2. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 4-year deal elsewhere he'll make $140.61 million over the next 4 years.

3. If Jimmy opts in and then signs a 4-year Birds rights deal next summer he'll make $179 million over the next 5 years.

4. If Jimmy opts in and signs a 5-year max next summer he'll make $225.765 million over 6 years.

5. If Jimmy signs a 1+1 deal this summer, then opts out to sign another 1+1 deal next summer (ala KD) and then signs a 3-year deal with Early Bird rights in 2 seconds when he's a 10-year vet he'll make $198.195 over 5 years.

6. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 3 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $202 million over 5 years. (This puts him at age 35, 2 years younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.)

7. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 4 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $253 million over 6 years. (This puts him at age 36, 1 year younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4-year max ends.

8. And finally if Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 5 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $307 million over 7 years. (This puts him at age 37, the same age Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.

These options are on the table for Butler. If he's willing to take incremental risk on an opt in he's not going to lose.

If he needs cash that bad..... hrhcan float a loan for one year.

This thing is building up just the easy i anticipated it would.

It makes more sense for all parties involved.... the Rockets, Jimmy, and the Sixers to negotiate this deal before the moratorium. In my humble opinion this is going to play out over the next few days. And if Butler wants to come to Houston it still be an opt in and trade.

And this is based on insider information that I simply don't believe will happen. When it comes actual decision time the numbers matter.

With that I'm predicting Butler opts in and is traded here by Saturday or he opts out and he goes somewhere but here. Our free agency recruiting and pitch are taking place now. If we can't get Butler and the Sixers tti cooperate now then it's because he don't want to come here or he wants to come here and Philly is being unreasonable.

And if he wants to come here on an opt in and Philly won't cooperate i think Jimmy wil lime sign a 1+1 in Phoenix or somewhere else...(maybe LA...Clippers) with the agreement that they will trade him whe he wants to go after Jan. 15).

So basically if Elton Brand is worth a plug nickle they'll trade him for reasonable value if Butler decides he wants Houston.

That's why if Butler isn't a Rocket by Sunday he probably won't be one this summer. It'll be time to move on. All this talk about SnT of Butler here is media bullcrap put out by the team to get a deal done now.

Because.......

We are trying to get two guys.
Click to expand...

Chance is slim if he needs money, 5year contract now.

#123 BigBum, Jun 26, 2019
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basketballholic said: ↑

So

I talked to an insider last night.

Don't ask. Im not going to tell. He knows Butler and Butler's agent.

He insisted to me that Jimmy was "opting out because he had to sign a max deal because he needs more money. This is about paying the bills. He's going to opt out and sign a max. There is no way he's going to opt in." (I'm leaving out a lot of stuff he said in the middle here. Just giving you the bookends of the conversation.)

I tried to reason with him but he cut me off. Wouldn't even allow me to lay numbers out. He talks to Jimmy's agent all the time. He's friends with Jimmy's agent. Jimmy is opting out because he needs money now!

So I'm putting this out here for several reasons. Let's see if it happens. This is a legit insider. If i named this person many of you know who he is and you would say, "Oh yeah, he's definitely an insider."

My perspective: I have no doubt Jimmy's agent said this. I don't doubt for a minute he's got to pay the bills, etc. I am 100% convinced Jimmy's agent told his personal friend this. And i can easily see that Butler is living a very lavish lifestyle when you consider his take home pay, etc.

But here's the facts:

Based on a $109 million cap number for 19-20 and a $118 million cap number for 20-21 and holding at $118 million cap for 21-22

1. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 5- year max deal in Philly he'll make $189.66 over 5 years.

2. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 4-year deal elsewhere he'll make $140.61 million over the next 4 years.

3. If Jimmy opts in and then signs a 4-year Birds rights deal next summer he'll make $179 million over the next 5 years.

4. If Jimmy opts in and signs a 5-year max next summer he'll make $225.765 million over 6 years.

5. If Jimmy signs a 1+1 deal this summer, then opts out to sign another 1+1 deal next summer (ala KD) and then signs a 3-year deal with Early Bird rights in 2 seconds when he's a 10-year vet he'll make $198.195 over 5 years.

6. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 3 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $202 million over 5 years. (This puts him at age 35, 2 years younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.)

7. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 4 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $253 million over 6 years. (This puts him at age 36, 1 year younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4-year max ends.

8. And finally if Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 5 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $307 million over 7 years. (This puts him at age 37, the same age Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.

These options are on the table for Butler. If he's willing to take incremental risk on an opt in he's not going to lose.

If he needs cash that bad..... hrhcan float a loan for one year.

This thing is building up just the easy i anticipated it would.

It makes more sense for all parties involved.... the Rockets, Jimmy, and the Sixers to negotiate this deal before the moratorium. In my humble opinion this is going to play out over the next few days. And if Butler wants to come to Houston it still be an opt in and trade.

And this is based on insider information that I simply don't believe will happen. When it comes actual decision time the numbers matter.

With that I'm predicting Butler opts in and is traded here by Saturday or he opts out and he goes somewhere but here. Our free agency recruiting and pitch are taking place now. If we can't get Butler and the Sixers tti cooperate now then it's because he don't want to come here or he wants to come here and Philly is being unreasonable.

And if he wants to come here on an opt in and Philly won't cooperate i think Jimmy wil lime sign a 1+1 in Phoenix or somewhere else...(maybe LA...Clippers) with the agreement that they will trade him whe he wants to go after Jan. 15).

So basically if Elton Brand is worth a plug nickle they'll trade him for reasonable value if Butler decides he wants Houston.

That's why if Butler isn't a Rocket by Sunday he probably won't be one this summer. It'll be time to move on. All this talk about SnT of Butler here is media bullcrap put out by the team to get a deal done now.

Because.......

We are trying to get two guys.
Click to expand...

He is injury prone, philly is concerned about 5year contract,

#124 BigBum, Jun 26, 2019
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jch1911 said: ↑

(1) Thanks for sharing
(2) Any insight on those two guys?
Click to expand...

Butler is obvious.

The second guy would probably come down to Horford or Love. Or we may wait on somebody else. I suspect Horford would be cheaper to obtain. And my gut says we'd prefer Love. But there'll be competition for Love. Blazers Clippers Celtics would all want him and they'd have some assets to obtain him. Blazers have Zach Collins, Simons, picks and other young talent. Celtics have a ton of picks and good youngsters. And if we obtain Butler in a trade the Sixers are going to have a ton of picks snd youngsters to throw at Cleveland. So i doubt we'd have enough left to out-asset those guys for Love. But we may have enough left for Horford. Or maybe Warriors break it down for one year and move out Draymond???????? Maybe OKC gets desperate enough to move out Adams? Miami give up Bam in a salary dump of JJ/Dion? Spurs Aldridge Pistons Blake in rebuild (gag)? Maybe Orl maxes Vuc then they fail and move him out at the deadline?

Who knows. But we're after another guy if we get Butler to opt in and come here.

#125 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019
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Typo corrected.

xiki said: ↑

"if he needs cash that bad..... hrhcan float a loan for one year." So, what beith 'huhcan'?

I'm not worried about a 70 win team, I need the Rox to be a 16-win team!
Click to expand...

#126 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019
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basketballholic said: ↑

I'm predicting Butler opts in and is traded here by Saturday or he opts out and he goes somewhere but here.
Click to expand...

Really going out on a limb there.

#127 topfive, Jun 26, 2019

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basketballholic said: ↑

Butler is obvious.

The second guy would probably come down to Horford or Love. Or we may wait on somebody else. I suspect Horford would be cheaper to obtain. And my gut says we'd prefer Love. But there'll be competition for Love. Blazers Clippers Celtics would all want him and they'd have some assets to obtain him. Blazers have Zach Collins, Simons, picks and other young talent. Celtics have a ton of picks and good youngsters. And if we obtain Butler in a trade the Sixers are going to have a ton of picks snd youngsters to throw at Cleveland. So i doubt we'd have enough left to out-asset those guys for Love. But we may have enough left for Horford. Or maybe Warriors break it down for one year and move out Draymond???????? Maybe OKC gets desperate enough to move out Adams? Miami give up Bam in a salary dump of JJ/Dion? Spurs Aldridge Pistons Blake in rebuild (gag)? Maybe Orl maxes Vuc then they fail and move him out at the deadline?

Who knows. But we're after another guy if we get Butler to opt in and come here.
Click to expand...

If there's a book out on Jimmy, the title of that book is STUBBORN. Something tells me if he's hell-bent on getting his money NOW, then opting out is something he's already set on. And if opting out is something he's already set on, then the Rockets don't really have a chance at getting him. There's no way we gut 40% of our starting roster and hard cap ourselves for one guy. I have a sinking feeling that your option 2 is the scenario that ends up playing out. Or ultimately, maybe the Siren Call of a 5 year max from Philly is too strong for him to ignore and he ends up staying.

#128 Fyreball, Jun 26, 2019

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treyk3 said: ↑

no that's not fair,

He's predicting against the narrative. The thing Woj clearly stated is that Butler would unlikely opt in like CP3 did and Houston is interested in an SNT regardless. BBH is predicting he either does a 180 into a very nice opt in and is traded here (ffs please do this Jimmy) or he opts out and goes somewhere else.
Click to expand...

That's whst I'm saying.

By the way im also with Trey on our defense changing next season. I think with Butler or whatever wrong we add you can expect us to drop the big (whomever they are but they'll be a shooter) a lot more, keep Harden in the corner defensively as much as possible and let PJ and Butler or whomever we get with around the arc with Cp3. We'll still switch a lot and even switch everything when our big suits and we've got PJ and another smaller fit at the 4/5 with the bench unit.
We're basically going to become read and react on both ends. Offensively with a big that can roll for the finish or pop for the 3 or plain spot up for the 3 while defensively we'll be running variations between switch everything but also doing the big in combination with 3 great perimeter defenders who can climb and swim through the screens well.

#129 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019
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Fyreball said: ↑

If there's a book out on Jimmy, the title of that book is STUBBORN. Something tells me if he's hell-bent on getting his money NOW, then opting out is something he's already set on. And if opting out is something he's already set on, then the Rockets don't really have a chance at getting him. There's no way we gut 40% of our starting roster and hard cap ourselves for one guy. I have a sinking feeling that your option 2 is the scenario that ends up playing out. Or ultimately, maybe the Siren Call of a 5 year max from Philly is too strong for him to ignore and he ends up staying.
Click to expand...

I feel like whoever gives Butler big money for 4-5 years will regret it in about two. Granted Chicago and Minnesota weren't great situations for various reasons, but having twice tantrum'd his way out of town, how long until he grows dissatisfied with the next team and becomes a cr@p teammate again?

Similar issue with Kyrie - he wasn't happy going to the Finals regularly beside an alltime great, and he wasn't happy being the main guy on arguably the most talented young team in the league. What does the next team have to offer that makes them confident he'll be happy this time??

#130 PlayBall, Jun 26, 2019
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Fyreball said: ↑

If there's a book out on Jimmy, the title of that book is STUBBORN. Something tells me if he's hell-bent on getting his money NOW, then opting out is something he's already set on. And if opting out is something he's already set on, then the Rockets don't really have a chance at getting him. There's no way we gut 40% of our starting roster and hard cap ourselves for one guy. I have a sinking feeling that your option 2 is the scenario that ends up playing out. Or ultimately, maybe the Siren Call of a 5 year max from Philly is too strong for him to ignore and he ends up staying.
Click to expand...

STUBBORN is accurate. I may be wrong. All the info that I've received says I'm wrong. Of the NBA guys Ive talked to they all say he's signing a max deal.

And if he does im ok with going to the next deal and waiting for somebody else. Actually 2 somebody elses.

#131 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019

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Simple...

Houston in: Butler/Hayward/Horford
Boston in: Paul/Capella
Philly in: Gordon/Nene

The money works,
Boston gets a replacement for Irving and Horford, gets to move Hayward's contract
Philly losing Butler anyway, gets Gordon and a backup 5
random picks can be involved where ever needed

Those adds would keep Boston in the mix in the east and our line up would be nice, they'd have to sign some others on the cheap, maybe Faried, Rivers, Green type guys to fill in the 2nd unit, but this starting 5 could make some noise

C - Horford
PF - Tucker
SF - Hayward
SG - Butler
PG - Harden

#132 Manos, Jun 26, 2019
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Manos said: ↑

Simple...

Houston in: Butler/Hayward/Horford
Boston in: Paul/Capella
Philly in: Gordon/Nene

The money works,
Boston gets a replacement for Irving and Horford, gets to move Hayward's contract
Philly losing Butler anyway, gets Gordon and a backup 5
random picks can be involved where ever needed

Those adds would keep Boston in the mix in the east and our line up would be nice, they'd have to sign some others on the cheap, maybe Faried, Rivers, Green type guys to fill in the 2nd unit, but this starting 5 could make some noise

C - Horford
PF - Tucker
SF - Hayward
SG - Butler
PG - Harden
Click to expand...

Horford's opting out in Boston. And CP3 is a toxic asset at this point - Boston's not going to do that to their cap. They're letting Horford walk because they realize giving big money to a 33 yr old likely to decline soon is likely to end poorly. Why do you think they're going to willingly add a $40M/yr contract for an older player already in visible decline?

#133 PlayBall, Jun 26, 2019

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ApacheWarrior said: ↑

Horford is out. He wants too much $.
The chasing two stars boat sank back then.

The Butler SnT to Houston still sails the choppy waters.
Click to expand...

Just as I thought. I think the alternative is to get the BPA with the 5.7 M, and try to trade EG, Clint plus picks etc at the February deadline. Have a great day, Apache.

#134 saleem, Jun 26, 2019

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PlayBall said: ↑

Horford's opting out in Boston. And CP3 is a toxic asset at this point - Boston's not going to do that to their cap. They're letting Horford walk because they realize giving big money to a 33 yr old likely to decline soon is likely to end poorly. Why do you think they're going to willingly add a $40M/yr contract for an older player already in visible decline?
Click to expand...

Another reminder. Horford may not opt out. (That's why Ainge is bent on moving out Haywood. Im surprised nobody else has caught wind yet of the possibility of Haywood being moved. Because it is a real possibility Haywood is moved before Sunday.)

Horford may elect to opt in and sign a smaller extension. Or opt in, be traded and then extend.

And Horford is very interested in coming here.

Best not to write a Horford opt out in stone until it's actually official.

#135 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019
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basketballholic said: ↑

Another reminder. Horford may not opt out. (That's why Ainge is bent on moving out Haywood. Im surprised nobody else has caught wind yet of the possibility of Haywood being moved. Because it is a real possibility Haywood is moved before Sunday.)

Horford may elect to opt in and sign a smaller extension. Or opt in, be traded and then extend.

And Horford is very interested in coming here.

Best not to write a Horford opt out in stone until it's actually official.
Click to expand...

According to NBC Sports, Horford's opt-in deadline was June 18th. https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/ce...-dates-player-options-contract-deadlines-loom

And the possibility of moving Hayward has been widely reported, but he has many of the CP3 problems - injury issues and visible decline in play, but his contract is for one fewer year and significantly fewer dollars.

#136 PlayBall, Jun 26, 2019
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Interesting read. We have known for a while now Jimmy wants to grab that bag. Can the Rockets *back channel* convince him to do an Opt-in and take less in the first year? I'd love to believe that, but am skeptical.

I do think getting this S&T out in public from Woj is a Morey tactic to get the 76ers to be more aggressive in considering this option.

basketballholic said: ↑

So

I talked to an insider last night.

Don't ask. Im not going to tell. He knows Butler and Butler's agent.

He insisted to me that Jimmy was "opting out because he had to sign a max deal because he needs more money. This is about paying the bills. He's going to opt out and sign a max. There is no way he's going to opt in." (I'm leaving out a lot of stuff he said in the middle here. Just giving you the bookends of the conversation.)

I tried to reason with him but he cut me off. Wouldn't even allow me to lay numbers out. He talks to Jimmy's agent all the time. He's friends with Jimmy's agent. Jimmy is opting out because he needs money now!

So I'm putting this out here for several reasons. Let's see if it happens. This is a legit insider. If i named this person many of you know who he is and you would say, "Oh yeah, he's definitely an insider."

My perspective: I have no doubt Jimmy's agent said this. I don't doubt for a minute he's got to pay the bills, etc. I am 100% convinced Jimmy's agent told his personal friend this. And i can easily see that Butler is living a very lavish lifestyle when you consider his take home pay, etc.

But here's the facts:

Based on a $109 million cap number for 19-20 and a $118 million cap number for 20-21 and holding at $118 million cap for 21-22

1. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 5- year max deal in Philly he'll make $189.66 over 5 years.

2. If Jimmy opts out to sign a 4-year deal elsewhere he'll make $140.61 million over the next 4 years.

3. If Jimmy opts in and then signs a 4-year Birds rights deal next summer he'll make $179 million over the next 5 years.

4. If Jimmy opts in and signs a 5-year max next summer he'll make $225.765 million over 6 years.

5. If Jimmy signs a 1+1 deal this summer, then opts out to sign another 1+1 deal next summer (ala KD) and then signs a 3-year deal with Early Bird rights in 2 seconds when he's a 10-year vet he'll make $198.195 over 5 years.

6. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 3 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $202 million over 5 years. (This puts him at age 35, 2 years younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.)

7. If Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 4 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $253 million over 6 years. (This puts him at age 36, 1 year younger than Cp3 will be when Paul's 4-year max ends.

8. And finally if Jimmy opts in, then signs a 1+1 deal next summer with Birds rights then signs for 5 more years in 21-22 with full Birds rights he'll make $307 million over 7 years. (This puts him at age 37, the same age Cp3 will be when Paul's 4- year max ends.

These options are on the table for Butler. If he's willing to take incremental risk on an opt in he's not going to lose.

If he needs cash that bad..... he hcan float a loan for one year.

This thing is building up just the easy i anticipated it would.

It makes more sense for all parties involved.... the Rockets, Jimmy, and the Sixers to negotiate this deal before the moratorium. In my humble opinion this is going to play out over the next few days. And if Butler wants to come to Houston it will be an opt in and trade.

And this is based on insider information that I simply don't believe will happen. When it comes actual decision time the numbers matter.

With that I'm predicting Butler opts in and is traded here by Saturday or he opts out and he goes somewhere but here. Our free agency recruiting and pitch are taking place now. If we can't get Butler and the Sixers tti cooperate now then it's because he don't want to come here or he wants to come here and Philly is being unreasonable.

And if he wants to come here on an opt in and Philly won't cooperate i think Jimmy wil lime sign a 1+1 in Phoenix or somewhere else...(maybe LA...Clippers) with the agreement that they will trade him whe he wants to go after Jan. 15).

So basically if Elton Brand is worth a plug nickle they'll trade him for reasonable value if Butler decides he wants Houston.

That's why if Butler isn't a Rocket by Sunday he probably won't be one this summer. It'll be time to move on. All this talk about SnT of Butler here is media bullcrap put out by the team to get a deal done now.

Because.......

We are trying to get two guys.
Click to expand...

#137 Deuce, Jun 26, 2019
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PlayBall said: ↑

According to NBC Sports, Horford's opt-in deadline was June 18th. https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/ce...-dates-player-options-contract-deadlines-loom

And the possibility of moving Hayward has been widely reported, but he has many of the CP3 problems - injury issues and visible decline in play, but his contract is for one fewer year and significantly fewer dollars.
Click to expand...

That was the deadline. It was probably extended.

Where's all the reports of Ainge possibly moving Hayward by Sunday????????

I don't see them.

#138 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019

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basketballholic said: ↑

That was the deadline. It was probably extended.

Where's all the reports of Ainge possibly moving Hayward by Sunday????????

I don't see them.
Click to expand...

"probably extended" - just an assumption on your part?

There are plenty of rumors out there about Hayward (and basically everybody else in the NBA) - just do your digging, it's out there.

#139 PlayBall, Jun 26, 2019
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PlayBall said: ↑

"probably extended" - just an assumption on your part?

There are plenty of rumors out there about Hayward (and basically everybody else in the NBA) - just do your digging, it's out there.
Click to expand...

Probably is not an assumption that it was. Probably means probably because it either favor all parties to extend the date to the 29th.

If Butler doesn't materialize...Horford and a youngster and a couple picks may be Rockets Sunday morning instead.

#140 basketballholic, Jun 26, 2019

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