NBA GameTime crew reacts to James Harden has 50-point triple-double, Rockets beat Kings 119-108

To even speak of Giannis in the same sentence as Harden is blasphemy right now.

 

I care more about what Joey is saying

 

Rex Chapman made millions as a player, yet still tried to walk out of an Apple store with tens of thousands of dollars worth of unpaid merchandise.

Derek Fisher sold the players association out at the last CBA, was caught dating the same woman as his player when he was a coach, has had a DUI.

They both are scumbags, not sure how either is employable honestly.

 

The argument you are making to discredit Giannis is flawed.

First, a jump from 53% to 58% in field goal percentage is not “going up slightly”. Second, his PPG has gone up about half a point, despite playing nearly 4 minutes less per game. You are ignoring how his overall statistical production has gone up considerably in the time he is actually on the floor. And his team is almost 10 points better per 48 minutes when he’s on the floor. His PER has gone up from 27.3 to 30.6. That is a huge leap. For player who played at least 30 mpg, there have been 87 player seasons in NBA history with a PER of at least 27.3, and only 17 with at least 30.6. Or you can look at BPM, where the improvement is from 5.8 to 10.8. 235 player seasons on record with at least 5.8 BPM, and only 14 with at least 10.8 BPM.

Also, this assumption that a 24 year old player with Giannis’s temperment and work ethic must not have improved all that much just because his individual stats look superficially not very different is, to me, very dubious. Are we going to ignore defense and all the intangible qualities a team’s best player entering his prime may improve on that can help elevate a team from good to great?

Anyway, my view on this whole debate is pretty simple. If you are putting up MVP-level numbers (check), and you are doing it on the best regular season team in the league (check) then you are a deserving MVP. It doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t also deserving for different reasons — as Harden absolutely is this year. You can have multiple deserving players, and then it’s just for the voters to decide who gets it. You can expect voters to have and use accurate information when making their choices, but you can’t expect them all to use the exact same criteria.

 

It’s pretty simple. James Harden has been a better player than Giannis this season. James Harden is the best player in the entire world. The Bucks still make the playoffs without Giannis, the Rockets are deep in the lottery without Harden.

Harden deserves the MVP and it really shouldn’t be that close. Jordan had to go through this same crap too, where voters went out of their way to find excuses to not give him the MVP.... LeBron did too.

This years vote will likely be like that disaster vote where Rose took the trophy over LeBron.

I bet money on Giannis (and Leonard too) winning the MVP before the season began. I have a financial stake in this, but Harden has clearly been the better and more valuable player this season.

 

Not only is it a tired argument... there’s a DPOY award already.

How many MVP votes did Rudy Gobert get last year? Zero. Despite ALSO scoring 14 points in great efficiency on a solid team that way outperformed.

LeBron was second in MVP on a team with just two more wins (in a lessser conference) despite being a defensive liability in the regular season.

Draymond Green. Artest. Ben Wallace. DJ. Etc.

Defense is “so important” there are countless examples of best player defensively in the league getting zero or very few MVP votes. Conversely there’s many amazing offensive players that aren’t good defensively that win or place high in MVP ranking. Harden, Russ, Steph twice, Nash twice, Dirk. All as winners. LeBron in second. Heck IT finished 5th in MVP two years ago. Despite being horrible defensively individually.

Bad defense can be masked.

But masked or not ... voters have no clue how they value MVP. It’s whatever fits their narrative.

So right now to fit the Giannis narrative they’re focused on the Rockets early season struggles (as if Harden was bad) and defense (ignoring that Harden is much improved and that historically they don’t think defense matters that much anyway by voting record)

 

harden could average 50 the last 5 games and people would still be like "wElL bUcKs aRe No 1"

 

That you can point to past winners who were subpar individual defenders doesn’t mean that defense doesn’t count.

Harden should not be disqualified because of his defense. There are some people who argue this, and that’s stupid. However, in a close race, accounting for defense and how that could tip the scales in favor of one player over the other makes a lot of sense. In this particular case, it is he Bucks defense that has made hem a superior team compared to the Rockets. So, why shouldn’t voters account for how each player impacts his team’s D?

Hakeem won his MVP largely because of his defensive play. He was DPOY, and the Rockets that year were a superior defensive squad and a middling offense squad. Should he have not won MVP, because defense just doesn’t count?

 

Since the last time he did not win it

Rocket River

 

Honestly, I haven’t actually seen a good case for Giannis, I’ve only heard people say that a good case exist somewhere. I certainly haven’t seen a reason that wouldn’t apply to Lebron or Paul George as well. At least, not on an individual level.

Besides for his team is proving they don’t need him as much as ESPN thinks to win, what argument actually exists for him? What stats are historical, or even better than his peers?

 

If I had a vote I’d choose giannis too..... if not for the Westbrook situation......

The media acts as though they did James a favor for giving him mvp last year which is just terrible.....

4 out of the last 5 season he’s been 1 or 2 in the mvp race.
3 of the 4 he probably should have won......
2 of those years he probably should have been unanimous....

All this considering he’s probably never been dubbed mvp in the offseason by the media which is a big f’ing deal.... he’s had to force his way in almost every year...... and the one “bad year” he avg what? 27 6 and 6 and didn’t even make an all nba team.....

James has never once b****ed about it or cried to the media or pleaded for anything.....

The man has my respect whether we win a title in his tenure or not......

I never thought I would love any other rocket more than Hakeem, Yao , Harry but man this guy smh there are no words.... he ain’t Dream but man he’s still f’ing amazing

 

2017: Yeah he has more wins but a historic season matters more.

2019: Yeah he has an historic season but more wins matters more.

 

He don't play center, nor do he like to defend Centers. Bucks will be a first round exit, no more easy dunks come playoffs, Kris middleton will be a deer in the headlights..

 

Derek Fisher literally says: "I don't think it should be about great individual performance" 8:50
wtf?

 

How convenient that the bucks are number 1 in the east when Lebron left.

Harden is the MVP! We’re currently in the number 3 seed but only a couple of games away from number 1.

We probably could have been the number 1 seed again, had we not had those **** players in the beginning of the season along with the injuries.

 

Excellent season for Giannis. There is no question.

What I am not going to ignore is the MONUMENTAL *impact* coach Michael Budenholzer has had on that team. Shifting everything around to PUT players in the most efficient place possible. Changing the culture. Changing the offense and the defense.

It is undeniable.

 

Budenholzer deserves COTY for the work he did with his team. A job of a great coach is to make his players better. That's what he has done. Players with good coaching will play at a higher level than players with bad coaching. That's just how it is. I don't believe in deducting from how well a player played because they are fortunate to have a good coach.

 

That's fine. Just that if *team success* is a component to the MVP formula one has to weight how heavily the coach's implementations were part of that. It is a fair question to ask. Bucks are great this season from last season. Why? What are all of the parts of this?
And at the same time, do we deduct from James Harden's resume the 11-14 start due to HIM or other factors around him? Injuries, poor supporting cast etc. Because it seems Howard Beck and Nichols are doing just that, pinning it ALL on Harden. It is selective.

In the *team success* component, dinging Harden for the 11-14 start and dismissing Budenholzer's imprint on the Bucks is my problem.

 

James Harden isn't just not bad on defense - he's an elite defender this year.

He did this while having the greatest offensive season in history.

There's a "best player on team with best record" every year. Harden was it last year. Durant the previous


There has been nobody that has ever done anything like Harden has done this year. Not Jordan, not lebron, not Shaq, not Magic, not Bird, not Hakeem, not Jabbar....not anyone.

The only guy who approaches is I guess Wilt but that was YMCA era weirdoball compared to the modern game.

If that's not enough for MVP then they should cancel the award.

 

Tip the scales? Are you saying voters consider this a close race *before* counting defense?

I think it is reasonable to assume defense has all already been factored in to make it this close race. Don't double count it. How is it close without counting defense?

Rockets have the 2nd best Record in the NBA even before that. From Melo benching 4-6 start, Rockets have the 2nd Best Record in NBA, 73% winning % since 11-14.