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Breaking: Trump's Wall

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Carl Herrera, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Well they used 1,800, but it wouldn't have taken that many. When it comes to overtaking a well dug in enemy with roughly similar weapons and training it takes 3 times as many soldiers to accomplish the task. With the Alamo, you had approximately 200 inside the fort and it caused approximately 600 Mexican casualties to overtake it.
     
  2. Buck Turgidson

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    Obviously he took a history class.
     
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    i cant believe what im seeing here! trumpulicans are now citing the alamo as justification for the border wall???

    there is a reason sam houston told bowie to blow up the alamo and get everyone out of there. it was an indefensible position and strategically unimportant. also, the entire garrison was wiped out in under an hour. i guess trumpublicans see it differently, but its generally regarded as a bad thing when your entire force is annihilated.

    this line of argument is historically ignorant, irrelevant to any border wall discussions and reeks of desperation...why do yall continually make fools of yourselves in defense of this narcissistic con-artist?
     
    Harrisment likes this.
  4. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    and a great many of those 600 mexican casualties were from friendly fire. untrained troops shooting the ones in front of them. but that high death toll is on santa anna more than the rebels. his generals wanted leave a few troops there to lay seige and with the rest, simply go around the alamo and keep heading east, but he didnt give a damn about his troops and had no problem sending them in to be slaughtered. he also didnt even bother to set up a post-battle field hospital and he had no surgeons...a lot of men died needlessly because of him.

    but you are correct that it would not have taken 1800 to defeat an entrenched enemy. just 3 months prior you had roughly 600 rebels lay siege to san antonio while you had 1200 mexicans garrisoned in the alamo. when about 400 rebels decided to attack they were able to defeat the mexican army in about 3 days. which makes the decision of travis and bowie to make a stand at the alamo even dumber. a force half the size of the mexican army was able to surround the town and then take it. they knew how difficult a position it was to hold, but ignored houstons orders to blow it up and retreat east.

    which is why i say that bringing up the alamo as an argument for a border wall is just dumb, historically ignorant and irrelevant.

    also, you think a brown bess musket and a kentucky long rifle are "roughly similar"? lol.
     
    RayRay10 likes this.
  5. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    The reasons for the casualties when you are assaulting a well dug in force is irrelevant when you consistently get approximately the same results. Also, I said "casualties" that does not mean "deaths"

    When a force of 600 defeats a force of 1200 there are other factors involved, it's something that should never happen if we're talking about similar arms and similar training.

    When I say that arms are "roughly similar" I mean that we're not talking firearms vs swords or machine guns vs bows. Smaller differences in arms can matter, but when assaulting a well entrenched force the rule of thumb is that it'll take at a minimum 3 times as many soldiers to accomplish the task.
     
  6. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    its estimated that only about 200 mexicans died with about 400 wounded. again, the casualty rate would have been much lower if santa anna had bothered to bring doctors and set up a field hospital.

    the fact regarding the alamo was that it was strategically unimportant and a stupid waste of lives (on both sides). the rebels were disorganized and divided so travis and bowie ignored houstons (wise) order to blow it up and head east. and santa anna ignored his generals (wise) suggestion to leave a small force to lay siege to the alamo and push east towards the main rebel army. leaders on both sides are responsible for all those deaths. again, it was a total unnecessary waste.

    with this is mind, it just makes citing the alamo as justification for a border wall even dumber. the wall was ineffective in december 1835 and again in march 1836. how in any way can trumpublicans even try to cite this as reason for a border wall??? ...its all about defending, justifying and making excuses for this narcissist con artist...the question is why?

    i could talk texas history and especially alamo history all day, so sorry for derailing!
     
    JayGoogle and No Worries like this.
  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    The casualties are disputed, some say 400 total, some say 600 total. Either way, it's right in line with what you'd expect. Making excuses for the casualties isn't really necessary....especially talking about hospitals given that a casualty is a casualty even if they don't die.

    I agree though that it was foolish of the Mexicans to even attack. If they had ignored it and not taken the casualties they'd have been much better off.

    To be clear, I'm not citing the Alamo as a reason for border barriers, I was just talking about the Alamo. The reason for border barriers are self evident and weren't controversial at all before Trump Derangement Syndrome.
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Just a touch longer than the Panama Canal.
     
  9. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    So how many Border Patrols does it take to stop a caravan from breaching the wall?
     
  10. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Significantly fewer than it would take without a border barrier. Perhaps half as many.
     
  11. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    the only ones making excuses here are trumpublicans. once again, trump says something foolish and his supporters make foolish comments to try and rationalize what he said. just because yall like to eat s***sandwiches doesnt mean the rest of us do!

    hmm...your comments over the last couple pages would indicate otherwise...

    "Yeah but it cost them pretty dearly. They won the day but it was a Pyrrhic victory. Walls are super useful when it comes to defending things, always have been."

    the reasons for not having a wall across the southern border are self evident and werent controversial at all before trump conned all yall into wanting to build his vanity wall. and the only ones suffering from "trump derangement syndrome" are his supporters who dont care that he continually manipulates, lies and plays them for fools.

     
  12. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    I've said nothing about Trump, he lives rent free in your mind, not mine.



    What I said is nothing more than an accurate statement, has nothing to do with Trump.

    Good, so you agree that border barriers are self evidently a good thing and they weren't controversial before you contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome, glad we could agree on that.
     
  13. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]

    Easy to get the two confused... one is on the Pacific Ocean, the other in the middle of Texas. But hey, they both are named after saints, which is always confusing to people with no religious awareness...
     
  14. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    lol...again, trump foolishly brought up the wall in san antonio and now trumpublicans are spinning themselves dizzy trying to rationalize his mindless rantings. i cant believe there are people here trying to use the alamo as a means to justify a border wall! its such a bizarre thing to see!

    lol...you said you were not citing the alamo as justification for the wall...but that is exactly what you were doing there.

    lol...the only ones who are deranged here are the ones citing the alamo as justification for the wall and the ones who continually allow a narcissistic con artist to lie, manipulate and play them for suckers.

    [​IMG]
     
    No Worries likes this.
  15. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    No, I was talking about the Alamo showing the effectiveness of walls they'd have fallen MUCH quicker and easier without the walls of the fort helping them out. When it comes to border barriers, that speaks for itself. Everyone knows border barriers work, it's only Trump Derangement Syndrome that prevents some from no longer acknowledging the obvious.
     
  16. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    lol. i dont know why you continue to lie when your words are right there for all to see.

    spin it however you want, but here you are citing the walls of the alamo as a reason why we should have a border wall...

    "Yeah but it cost them pretty dearly. They won the day but it was a Pyrrhic victory. Walls are super useful when it comes to defending things, always have been."

    again, the only ones suffering from trump derangement syndrome are people like you who totally give trump a pass on his lie that mexico was going to pay for the wall (which was his main campaign promise) and also try to cite the alamo as a reason for having a border wall.

    again, i know trumpublicans see it differently but its generally a bad thing when your entire force is annihilated. one has to be pretty deranged to claim that the alamo was any kind of victory.

    you trumpbulicans are so deranged and brainwashed that you have no problem making foolish comments in order to defend/make excuses for/justify the foolish comments of a narcissistic con-artist. the question is "why".

    yall are being played for suckers and you love it because ORANGE MAN IS YOUR GOD.
     
  17. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    What I said was merely a factually accurate statement. Walls are super useful when it comes to defending things. It's a universally true statement. The Alamo isn't a reason to support border barriers though, a fort isn't a border barrier.

    A much more relevant reason for people to support border barriers is the 700 miles worth of border barriers already in place that Democrats supported building that have been pretty massively successful thus far in cutting illegal immigration in half. The case to finish the job has nothing to do with the Alamo and I never suggested that was the case.
     
  18. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    "walls do not work."

    2019 everyone.... lol
     
  19. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    One of the stupidest parts of this argument is it somehow devolving into Trumpsters arguing about whether a wall has any use as if that owns the libs.

    Lib: A wall a long the Southern border would be a waste of money as it would be largely ineffective in places that are not patrolled regularly and would be impossible in some places where there are already natural barriers.
    Trumpster: LOL did a wall help at the Alamo???

    Good grief. These aren't intellectually honest arguments at all. I don't think even the worst anti-Trump liberal would suggest that walls have no use or that they don't work at limited borders, tight spaces, etc.
     
    vlaurelio likes this.
  20. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    and Mexico still ain't paying for it as promised back in 2016.. some people just deserve to be conned..
     

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