The only time Harden lost to a worse team in the series is against Portland. Choking in playoffs is just a narrative which is popular.
Look, the term "choke" isn't like a defined term. I 'ts open for interpretation. But when it comes to how the word is used in sports settings, he's certainly had some playoff "choke" moments that typically come with excuses. He was bad against Miami in the Finals. But he was young, right? They lost to the Blazers with home-court advantage - Harden was just NOT GOOD in games 1/2 that series as LMA dominated. He was just "ok" in a playoff series against the Clippers that is most remembered for how he didn't play in the 4th quarter of the miracle comeback game 6 win because he just wasn't good that game. He infamously had 2-11 shooting, 12 turnovers performance in the series ending loss to the Warriors the next round. They lost to a Spurs team that had HCA, but was worse than the Rockets quickly in that series once TP went down. I've heard basically NOBODY say Harden choked in the playoffs last year. He wasn't AMAZING. But the team was outmatched before CP3 went down, and crazy outmatched afterwards. And of course of relevance, if you look at some of the stats/advanced stats, you can see some of this. Choking or not, he's a 32% three point shooter in the playoffs, and hasn't topped 30% the past two years despite jacking 10+ a game. And his playoff PER is down, in a statistically significant way. Which means if you compare across other superstars across generations... many of them also have lower playoff PERs, but not all, and not all by as high a % drop. If you look at his GameScores (not the best stat ever, but...), he's had a number of years with his worst games of the year, by GameScore, comes in the playoffs (conversely his highest GameScore game is always in the regular season). I mean... the playoffs IS harder... this isn't revolutionary analysis... but... ... This isn't just hating. It's just what it is. So when folks say we need to see this in the playoffs... it's ok to be the biggest Harden supporter ever and to still also say, you're right. Hopefully they'll have enough talent around him one day in the playoffs to win a ring, but hopefully he'll also have some great, defining moments and series whether they ultimately win the ring or not. What is that defining series at the moment? Harden's a freak of nature. Absent the world's best shooting (Curry), or world's freakiest combination of size/length/athleticism (KD, or Lebron+Age Defying, or Giannis)... he has nonetheless turned himself into an unstoppable beast of an offensive weapon. He's an offensive system of his own. He should be #1 in the MVP race right now, and if he wins his second in a row, it will absolutely be deserving. And if they go into the playoffs undermanned, injured and without a quality roster around him, this is on DM, not Harden. But if everyone's healthy, I want to see regular season MVP Harden in the playoffs, and I want to see VERY FEW or no off games... or to the extent there is an off game, it's still ok and above average, or its early in the playoffs and doesn't matter. Not to go all @tinman but its absolutely insane at this point to even think about putting Harden up there with Hakeem. For one, we all know Hakeem could have easily won another MVP himself. For two, this was a dude that was doing stuff like Harden is doing now, but in the playoffs, head to head with his key rival and opposing center(s). I n their 6 game defeat of the Spurs and MVP David Robinson, Hakeem put up games of 41, 43, 42 and 39 on great efficiency. He had rebound games of 16, 11, 14 and 17. He had 5 blocks in 4 of the games. He had one bad game, they lost, he got pissed, and somehow dominated even more the next two games to take the series. This wasn't exactly an era of CRAZY stat-lines like we are maybe seeing now with the three. Dude absolutely DOMINATED. T hen he continued to dominate - though not quite as crazily - the next series against another all time great opponent in Shaq. This would be equivalent to Harden dominating this post-season against Lebron, then the GSW - notwithstanding he might not have the squad to actually win those series, but you get the idea...
when you break it down into 2s and 3s not really. many volume scorers shoot low 30s from three in the playoffs. kobe shot 33% for his playoffs career
Harden didn't play well that series but IMO howard was horrendously officiated that series, potentially costing us game 1 (or 2 whichever one went to OT). should've had an opportunity to get to the 2nd round and play the spurs who we swept in regular season that year the series was already over, but haters love to emphasize this game as a key moment. they were down 3-1 vs the warriors without home court advantage. nearly the entire team outside of harden and howard was shooting <40% overall MDA was outcoached. Our defense dictated having Harden guard 7 footers (aldridge and gasol) throughout the series and Pop wisely chose to continue exploiting both the effectiveness of the matchup as well as the physical toll exacted on harden. Pretty sure the entire team mentally quit after losing Nene and being left with a big rotation of young capela, young harrell, and ryan anderson vs KD/draymond/zaza next round and lebron/love/thompson in the finals I've heard MANY MANY people claim that harden choked games 6 and 7 Maybe all of this sounds like excuses for Harden. To me they are important context. 29/30 teams lose each year but the only other player criticized as much for being on one of those 29 teams is Lebron. Harden hasn't played as well in the playoffs but has still been very good overall. Very few players in each era (Lebron and Kawhi currently) have demonstrated the ability to elevate their game in the playoffs. Harden wasn't a truly great shooter as a leading scorer until this year IMO, with the exception of 2015 when he also shot 38% in the playoffs. Career 33% from three really isn't bad for a player in Harden's position. Kobe Lebron and Harden all average 33% from three in the playoffs for their careers. Harden has arguably had the least offensive help throughout his career of the three.
But did he choke though? I mean . . .G.S. had 2 former MVPs still in their prime and 2 other All Stars and Harden had . . .. No CP3 . . .. no other All Stars . . . and they still needed REF HELP and Historical shooting drought to win That NICK guys even pointed out that there was a 8 point Ref differential per game in that series Rocket River
My bad, I interpreted your thread as a "Harden's great but I'm going to regurgitate the same old tired narrative that's been around since he's been with the team to try and prove he's great"
and we were tied with them . . .. . record wise . . . . Is that the series Lin had the crucial turnover Rocket River
Harden haters are "BUT"heads. No matter how many times you show them facts and stats to invalid statements about him, they have a BUT this or but that, but...but....but...No more buts, he's one of the best players in the NBA, if not the best this season.
If a team managed to win best overall record, there are not many teams better. Only GSW on paper that is.
That's an excuse, and one I wish Rockets fans would get past. Always blaming the refs... 1. series was not technically over (see for example GSW up 3-1 on Cavs, or OKC up 3-1 on GSW). 2. it has nothing to do with haters emphasizing anything... it's just the ACTUAL stats and ACTUAL performance in the game. 3. it was an elimination game. Sure, not quite an elimination game 7, but there's a reason why you see on ESPN and elsewhere all the time such and such's stats in elimination games. Cause they are important. 4. oh yeah, the team wasn't close to good enough to take out the GSW. I'm not expecting a series win, or even 2 wins in the series. Just had hoped for better than 2-11, 12 turnovers. i didn't care for MDAs coaching. I'm not sure why he inserted Eric Gordon into the starting lineup. Pop obviously adjusted better than Harden. Etc. But Harden's performance and stats from 4th quarter of Game 5 through Game 6 of that series is just bizarre... and is as close to "choke" / "quit" as you could ever describe him - even though I absolutely don't think he quit. Not sure what the GSW or Cavs had to do with it, lol. Well, I haven't heard anybody... or at least anybody that has a clue. Maybe some random ass fans... who cares what they think? Well, I mean, they are excuses. The one thing I definitely agree with you on... HOWEVER there's not much we can do about it... rings is weighed too heavily in overall player greatness. It's a team sport. Sure, one great player might have more impact than in baseball, or football (outside QB), but nonetheless its still a team sport and most teams at a minimum go 8 deep in the playoffs. MJ didn't win EVERY year. He won when his team was great. Even when he came out of retirement that first year, he was still really pretty great immediately. But the team wasn't quite as great. The addition of Dennis Rodman, principally, addressed their hugest hole, and added a HOF player, one of the best defenders and rebounders EVER, to the squad... and surprise, surprise, they win 73 and 3 straight titles. I guarantee you if MJ took the same team from the prior year, they would have lost in the Eastern playoffs at some point again. I mean, it is what it is. Harden is lower than those guys and most importantly, now in his prime, increasing his attempts to never before seen levels yet his % has gone down. 28% and 29% on 10+ threes, two years in the playoffs in a row, is ATROCIOUS. There's no other way around it. I have been saying for years, and continue to stand by it... it's the most important stat to look at for him every playoffs. 37%+ Harden, from three, in the playoffs, would be a top 5 playoff performer maybe ever ... especially with what he has in his game now. He'd just be unstoppable offensively... as he has proven to be in the regular season this year. Also... side note, it will be interesting to see where this generation of players/guards that are all-time greats end up on a 3p% basis in the playoffs when all said and done. Steph will obviously be high, and Klay, and KD. Kawhi is at 43% in the playoffs. But then Russ is at 30% - but of course, that's the territory Harden is in and Russ is known for being a blah 3 point shooter.
What argument? History is being written now. His legacy is being born now. History dont repeat itself, it rhymes. Remains to be seen if he will bring this greatness to playoffs of the future. But id bet on it.
I'm too lazy to check numbers, but I remember Harden's thing in the playoffs is that he tends to start a series really strong and then he sort tails off later. Harden in game 1 is likely to really kill a team, but when they're grinding into game 5-7, he just isn't making the same kind of impact. I don't know why, if it's because opponents adjust and shut him down or if it's a mental thing or what, but if Harden could have an elimination game like what he did last night or against the Warriors a couple of weeks ago, the critics would probably shut up really fast.
It is what it is. I doubt you can explain a reason to ignore the context outside of solely saying the word "excuse." 1. not technically over but functionally over. we were considered underdogs even in the previous series and had nowhere near the talent/firepower as 2016 Cavs or Thunder 2. saying that it is ACTUAL anything does not answer the reality that haters do emphasize it... Why don't they mention his great performances games 1 and 2 when the series was actually competitive? 3. elimination games are the #1 most likely situation for a player to fail. there is no worse matchup you can have than vs a team that has already beat you 3 times in a playoff series. this is another casual/hater emphasis not grounded in logic. It's below average but it's not atrocious at all. When you factor in fouls drawn on threes it is the equivalent of shooting 45-50% on twos, which considering the lower level of offensive efficiency in the playoffs is not too bad. I don't know why you are comparing to three of the greatest shooters of all time. They are not the type of player Harden is. Even then KD's playoff efficiency is a product of the presence of elite teammates. In the 6 seasons before joining the Warriors, KD shot below 30% from three twice in the playoffs, above 35% only one time (37.3% in 2012). Lebron and Kobe, both offensive leaders like Harden who carried a huge burden in terms of offensive production, are both at the same percentage for their entire careers (33%).
That's the same argument I have with most idiots that only watches highlights & bs clown youtube videos and they want to talk about Harden. How the **** does Harden get the choke label when he's a one-man team carrying a bunch of nobodies to the playoff, to the 2nd round, & western conf? Just because he has one bad game in a series against a team w/ multiple All-Stars means he choked? We lose in the playoff because we were supposed to lose based on what we have & what we don't have.
As long as he has the refs on his side, he will win his first title this year. I dont think there's a single team in the league that can beat cp3/Harden/refs. Him and Chris are simply too good to overcome when the refs are calling everything in there favor. Reminds me of Kobe and shaq in their day. You're not going to be able beat 2 players that great AND the refs. I'm 100% expecting rockets to win it this year.
