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UN and Israel

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. Daedalus

    Daedalus Member

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    Therein lies the heartbreak.
    Palestinians are poets, scientists & far more modern than other many Arab states.

    If only they had an MLK. America was truly fortunate...
     
  2. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    So they can have someone to martyr that fits a profile. . . .
    never forget. . . . America killed MLK

    Rocket River
     
  3. Daedalus

    Daedalus Member

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    ???

    He was a great American. Paid the ultimate price.
    I suspect he'd be disappointed by your reaction.

    I PRAISED HIM.
    The profile he fit was that of an exemplary individual who's capacity of forgiveness & faith in the the goodness of others advanced the cause of justice.


    If the Palestinians had such a leader, they'd be further ahead.
     
  4. dmoneybangbang

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    Meh. I say we just have all the Muslims, Jews, and Christians meet in the desert and settle things with hand to hand combat. That way we can know for sure which Abrahamic religion is number 1.... then we can have the winner square off against the Hindus.
     
  5. hlcc

    hlcc Member

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    What's your definition of "legitimate claim"? Various recent Chinese dynasties & governments have controlled and ruled over Xinjiang, Tibet & Taiwan for several hundred years now. So it's not like as the Chinese just woke up one day and suddenly decided they claimed Xinjiang, Tibet & Taiwan as their territory. As far as I can tell, China don't actually care about the Palestinians and actually have a pretty strong military & economic relationship with Israel. They are just paying lip service to appease their various Arab oil & gas suppliers.
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    There is the explanation for durvasa et al. why these other countries vote alongside the Israel haters.
     
  7. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Various Chinese dynasties and governments also controlled Korea, as well as many other territories not administered by Chinese in the present day.

    Are you going to allow them to roll out that dusty old map and make a claim?

    I most certainly will not allow them, but then again I am standing for Western values. What would I know?

    Anyway, Israel was attacked in a "right of conquest" by Palestine and its Arab allies. They were beaten, not once, not twice, but three times.

    Israel defended itself. They were victorious. They did not acquire this land through "right of conquest". It is their land.
     
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  8. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War


    Relations between Israel and its neighbours had never fully normalised following the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. In 1956 Israel invaded the Egyptian Sinai, with one of its objectives being the reopening of the Straits of Tiran which Egypt had blocked to Israeli shipping since 1950. Israel was subsequently forced to withdraw, but won a guarantee that the Straits of Tiran would remain open. Whilst the United Nations Emergency Force was deployed along the border, there was no demilitarisation agreement.[21]

    In the period leading up to June 1967, tensions became dangerously heightened. Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that the closure of the straits of Tiran to its shipping would be a casus belli and in late May Nasser announced the straits would be closed to Israeli vessels. Egypt then mobilised its forces along its border with Israel, and on 5 June Israel launched what it claimed were a series of preemptiveairstrikes against Egyptian airfields. Claims and counterclaims relating to this series of events are one of a number of controversies relating to the conflict.

    The Egyptians were caught by surprise, and nearly the entire Egyptian air force was destroyed with few Israeli losses, giving the Israelis air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israelis launched a ground offensive into the Gaza Strip and the Sinai, which again caught the Egyptians by surprise. After some initial resistance, Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser ordered the evacuation of the Sinai. Israeli forces rushed westward in pursuit of the Egyptians, inflicted heavy losses, and conquered the Sinai.

    Nasser induced Syria and Jordan to begin attacks on Israel by using the initially confused situation to claim that Egypt had defeated the Israeli air strike. Israeli counterattacks resulted in the seizure of East Jerusalem as well as the West Bank from the Jordanians, while Israel's retaliation against Syria resulted in its occupation of the Golan Heights.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War

    The conventional view and memoirs of key Israelis indicate that Israel's actions leading into the war were prudent and the blame for the war rested on Egypt. According to political scientist Zeev Maoz, most scholarly studies attribute the crisis to a complicated process of unwanted escalation, which all sides wanted to prevent, but for which all were ultimately responsible.[2] Nasser knew that his blockade of the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage, on 23 May 1967, might very likely provide Israel with reason to launch war.[3] His decisions to ask for the removal of the UN peacekeepers from Sinai and especially to block the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping via the Straits of Tiran, are commonly accepted as the point where war became inevitable.[3][4] Some commentators consider the war as the classic case of anticipatory attack in self-defense, [5][6] while in the 21st century the view that Israel acted in self-defense has become increasingly contested. [7]

    Regarding the 1967 war after which Israel took control of Jerusalem, West Bank, and Gaza, at best you can say Israel attacked first but in self defense. And even that is widely contested by historians.
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

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    durvasa, how much do you think your environment has influenced your views?
     
  10. hlcc

    hlcc Member

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    What does "standing for Western values" even mean? Western power's territories are build on conquest just like everyone else.

    The various Chinese dynasties lost control over Korea, Vietnam etc long time ago. They maintained a tributary relationship but the Chinese did not have sovereignty over Korea, Vietnam etc for almost the last 1000 years. That's not the case for Xinjiang, Tibet & Taiwan. For the last 300ish years, the Chinese have maintained control and sovereignty over Xinjiang, Tibet & Taiwan with a few minor interruptions.
    As for Taiwan, according to the various surveys done over the last couple of years, a shockingly high percentage of Taiwanese are not willing to fight to defend Taiwan.
    Hilarious, "you certainly will not allow them". Never knew the Chinese took orders from you.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    My views are influenced by what I have read about the conflict, my values, and my reasoning faculties.

    What are you speculating regarding my environment? I can confirm or deny it. I’m not afraid to admit by biases, as everyone has them.
     
  12. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Israel “attacked” first in the same manner that someone would “attack” someone pointing a loaded gun at them. Some may say “but they never fired”, but that is not very meaningful.
     
  13. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    In 1956 Israel did attack Egypt over the Suez Canal and were the aggressors in that conflict. So there was precedent for that.

    As for Egypt’s troop mobilization in 1967, we now know this was in response to intelligence from the Soviets that Israel was preparing for an attack against Syria. It was a failed attempt at intimidation, apparently. Israel seized the opportunity to take control of the land they believed they had a rightful claim ove anyway for religious/cultural reasons.

    https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.co...ttack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/


    Yitzhak Rabin, who would later become Prime Minister, told Le Monde the year following the ’67 war, “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent to the Sinai, on May 14, would not have been sufficient to start an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin acknowledged in a speech in 1982 that its war on Egypt in 1956 was a war of “choice” and that, “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
     
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  14. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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    This hilarious , the three stooges Booby,cohe and atw

    vs.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    There are only so many Palestinian refugees according to the UN because the UN uses a different definition for refugees for Palestinians than it does for every other nation. In the rest of the world, a refugee is someone that was forced to leave their home due to some calamity (war, natural disaster, whatever). For Palestinians (and only Palestinians) refugee includes the descendants of refugees. Using the standard definition of refugee that applies to every other population is something on the order of 30,000.
     
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  16. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    What makes Israel different that Syria, North Korea, Iran etc?

    Israel is the only one of those that has been systemically trying to expand its territory and ethnically cleanse terrority against UN resolutions - which founded Israel in the first place.
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    So once a generation passes after ethnic cleanings, it's ok? Explains why Israel does what it does.
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

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    Your screen name seems to be related to Hinduism, but your anti-Israel bias suggests you have been exposed to the types of things circulated about Israel in Muslim communities.
     
  19. AroundTheWorld

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    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/einstein-warned-israeli-mistreatment-arabs.html

    Albert Einstein is one of the most prominent Jews in modern history.

    And there are numerous false rumors about Einstein’s stance on Israel and Palestinians. For example, there is no evidence that Einstein ever uttered the following statement which has been falsely attributed to him:

    Like most of the propaganda spread in Muslim circles, this is made up.

    Additional source.

    2. “It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.”
    There is no recorded evidence that Einstein ever said this quotation.
    The motivation for this fake quote should be apparent. It would be beneficial to pro-Palestinian activists to show that a paragon of wisdom, and a Jew himself no less, was also pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Israel.
    This fake quotation also compares Zionists to Nazis, which is suspicious because Einstein was a supporter of Labor Zionism

    https://www.quora.com/What-quotes-are-most-commonly-misattributed-to-Albert-Einstein
     
  20. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    I consider my biases regarding this conflict to be more foundational than mere anti-Israel bias. I presume you feel the same regarding your apparent “anti-Muslim” bias.

    I have a bias against rationalizing violence with what I consider flimsy pretexts, dehumanizing others, being unwilling to see the perspective of others and seek out common ground, being unwilling to compromise, and simplifying the history of long-standing conflicts in order to make one side look totally innocent.

    In international affairs, I have a bias towards diplomatic peace efforts and respecting international law. I have a bias towards respecting the rights of indigenous populations, including the right to self determination. I have a bias towards pragmatism as well as fairness.

    So, yes I’m biased, and that affects how I look at this conflict. I have sought out perspectives on this conflict from both sides, and I find those perspectives which resonate more with my own biases the most compelling.
     

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