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What would it take to put us in the same category as Golden State?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Tha_Dude, May 20, 2017.

  1. likestohypeguy

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    Shumpert.

    You don't want your "hair" guy to also be the best player on your team. Misdirection is key.
     
  2. chievous minniefield

    chievous minniefield Contributing Member

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    Technically, you'd need 2 MVPs, a Defensive POTY, a 6th MOTY and another All-NBA player to be on the Warriors' level. Objectively.

    So, if you're willing to squint at Beard as an MVP guy, I'd say adding the following players would put the Rockets at the same level.

    James Harden = Steph Curry
    Lebron James = Kevin Durant
    Kawhi Leonard = Draymond Green
    Eric Gordon = Klay Thompson
    Giannis Antetekoumpo = Andre Iguodala

    Some of these aren't direct comps. Probably because direct comps aren't possible.

    Eric Gordon isn't an All-NBA guy like fake Klay Thompson, but Giannis and Kawhi are better than ********er Green and Iguodala.

    If someone can come up with better, more "realistic" matchups, have at it.

    Maybe swap Gordon for Jimmy Butler or Demar DeRozan. Maybe swap Giannis for Hayward.

    This exercise gives full light to how toxically ****ing lame the NBA is right now.
     
    jevjnd likes this.
  3. TheresTheDagger

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    By the time Lebron retires and the GSW have had their title runs, we won't recognize the NBA as a "competitive" league anymore. Congratulations Adam Silver, NBA owners, and the NBA players association. You have officially ruined professional basketball.
     
  4. haoafu

    haoafu Contributing Member

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    Switch team with Cav, so we are in the east and Cav in the west. We should be in the final fresh, rested without injury. Let GSW, CAV, SPURS, CLIPPERS fight their teeth off very tired and at least banged up so bad coming into the final...
     
  5. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    I guess I would prefer to be a realist but to me, the only way any team can beat the Warriors right now is through outstanding 3pt shooting + 2-3 All Stars(and it helps if one of them is the GOAT). That's it because current foul rules favor offensive players meaning elite offensive is always going to have an advantage over elite defense. For Houston to get in the discussion they need another all-star and hopefully that person is an elite two way player. Outside of that, they need to be able to play at least competent/focused defense and retain lots of shooting at all positions without getting killed on the boards or defending the paint.

    The thing is, even if you somehow replaced Harden with Lebron, we would still not have much of a chance against the Warriors because we are missing a Kyrie or a Love....so really it all starts with keeping Harden(no matter how many idiots here talk about trading him), and trying to get another elite player on the roster to start. Maybe a Hayward or Paul George isn't enough to beat the full strength warriors, but it does give Houston a punchers chance if they hit a hot streak - certainly much better than this year's team....and the thing is - your a Curry or Durant injury away from being right there. So the answer is follow the multiple star game plan as best you can, keep lots of shooters on the roster, and hope luck is on your side because there is no historical answer of how to beat a team with 3 elite offensive players, 3 elite defensive players, good coaching, AND an excellent bench. Either that, or wait it out - at least the Warriors won't have much cash to spend on their bench after they max out their stars to their new cap holds - at that point it's just a matter of what vet is willing to take pennies to play for them on a quest for a ring.
     
  6. JoeBarelyCares

    JoeBarelyCares Contributing Member

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    Get lucky. Keep plugging away at building the best team possible and then hope that 2 of the big 4 in GS get hurt. It takes some luck to win a title, even when you have the best talent. When GS won in 2015, they had an incredible run of good health.
     
  7. basketballholic

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    It's all about matchups. You find a guy that can defend Draymond in the post that will put a stop to Draymond trying to post up. Same guy has to be able to face up from distance(corner) and force Draymond to defend him spotting up, thereby taking Draymond out of the bulk of the defensive action.

    Then you find a guy that can both defend Curry effectively and get over screens to avoid the switch......while challenging Curry with his quickness and ball handling and shooting so Curry really has to work defensively and if Curry goes under screens and/or switches he gets burnt big time.

    Those are the first two keys to beating the Warriors and those two players don't have to be superstars. It is best to defend Curry with a small, quick player rather than a bigger, longer player. Curry's great ball skills make length and size mismatches fall in his favor. Whereas when he is the bigger, slower player in the matchup he has more trouble being efficient.

    (This is precisely why I want Frank Mason in this draft.)
     
    #87 basketballholic, May 22, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  8. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    It's just a joke that Durant went there, in my opinion.

    They were already the favorites to win the championship. Of course if you add another superstar it just opens a huge gap with the rest of the league.

    I hope they get screwed somehow financially.
     
  9. RocketsFido

    RocketsFido Member

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    Whatever the line we're trying to put up here to compete with the Warriors, will have to involve a trade. Either for Butler or PG. But since we have crap for assets, that's probably not going to happen unless other GMs also think of Sam Dekker as the next (Harrison Barnes) like Morey does.

    Whatever's the case, if we can't make the trades happen. We need to sign one of Hayward or Griffin this off-season.
     
  10. ROXonROXonROX

    ROXonROXonROX Member

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    It honesty starts with DM. Can't be so timid to spend above the salary cap. It would be awesome to be able to sign Blake Griffen or Paul George this summer without getting rid of our main core. Yea give up Dekker, Harrell, our picks this year, and the rights to Llull for either one but bc it's DM I'm sure he would find a way to make this impossible or even more complicated than what it should be.
     
  11. caneks

    caneks Rookie

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    Not enough.
     
  12. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    Fire Morey.

    Hire Heinke.

    Trade Harden for picks.

    #StartTheProcess
     
  13. basketballholic

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    A team can be built to beat the Warriors a soon as next season. Won't have to be four all-stars either. Although they'll probably become All-stars when they beat the Warriors.
     
  14. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    Why do you say that? Your assuming they will have riff raff on their bench after paying all their stars? Seems like history suggests ring chasers gonna chase rings on the best two teams.
     
    #94 glimmertwins, May 22, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  15. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Do you have any clue about how the salary cap works? Lol
     
  16. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    The only thing that I'll "kind of" agree with is that... sure, it's possible.
    As amazing as those 4 key guys are together, there's also some diminishing return, since there's only one ball, and towards the end of close games, you kidn of need a defined hierarchy of talent... that said, those 4 pieces kind of fit together perfectly.

    In any case, the "formula" seems to be:
    - All players on the team need to be solid, 2 way players. You certainly can't have any defensive liability
    - Multiple all-stars, including a "closer" offensively
    - Athletic bigs that can rotate and do a halfway decent job switching

    All that said... be specific? Like what do you see as feasible realistically, excluding the Cavs? And maybe the Spurs - who I could see putting up a challenge with health and some great offseason moves. Whether its the Rockets or another team.... what are some feasible moves you can see made to any team for next year that would really make them competitive?
     
  17. Pizza_Da_Hut

    Pizza_Da_Hut I put on pants for this?

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    We need the following:

    One two way player. Doesn't have to be at a Kawhi level, but near it would be nice. More than just a 3 and D guy. Ariza and Bev sort of fake this, but realistically that's not working out for us.
    One true stretch 4. Ryno doesn't play enough defense to be worth it. Ibaka could be like that, maybe BG?
    One sharp shooter. A dead eye. Korverlike?

    Those three players, superstars or not, would put the rockets at the next level.
     
  18. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    Realistically, the answer is "some good luck and clutch performance during a 7 game series."

    It's hard to match GSW's talent level, especially given the new CBA favoring the true elite guys staying put. However, even teams with multiple elite talent can still get beat-- see Dallas vs. Miami in 2011. Sometimes, one elite player + the perfect blend of veterans and great role players around him can make magic happen.

    We need to find our own Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, Caron Butler, Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, etc..
     
    #98 Carl Herrera, May 22, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  19. basketballholic

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    Not assuming they'll have riffraff on their bench. I'm assuming the GM can find top of the rotation players in the second round similar to what GS did when they drafted Draymond, and I'm assuming a ten can find the right bargain basement free agents that are great rotation players similar to what the Warriors did when they signed guys like Livingston.
     
  20. FANfrom86toNow

    FANfrom86toNow Contributing Member

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    First, I have finally come out of my shell shock of what happened to us in game 5 and more importantly game 6. I was stunned by Harden's performance, and can't put my faith in him again until he earns it, IN THE PLAYOFFS. I know he may be even better next year with his 2nd year at PG, and put up all worldly numbers throughout the regular season, but the issue isn't his abilities, it's his mental approach during the playoffs in crunch time when it counts. That being said, let's move on and see how can we compete with the Warriors. Because unless you are doing that, we are only playing for the regular season anyway.

    @Tha_Dude I know you said let's pretend there is no salary cap, but I'm going to go with the cap we have and still try to make a "CASE" where certain "stars" could line up (pun intended) and we could then compete with the Warriors. To me in order to compete with the Warriors, you have to HANG with their starters, because there is no way to match them with a salary cap, but then try to beat their bench so that you can ultimately have a chance at beating them in a 7 game series. Here is my "possible" scenario to do so:

    We have to look at each position by starter and backups so.....

    PG
    Curry & Livingston vs Harden & Bev,

    To me, I'm comfortable with this match up, although I would never let Bev guard Livingston..hence we need another taller PG option, or SG tall enough to affect Livingston's turn around baseline jumper that always kills us. I will address that in SG because I think Bev should still move to backing up Harden and only getting about 12 to 20 minutes a game, ALTHOUGH HE IS A WOLVERINE! I still give us the slight edge in this position!

    SG
    Clay & Clark vs Gordon & (Lou)

    I think Gordon needs to move to the starting lineup if we keep him so that he takes pressure off Harden doing too much work in the regular season. Although Gordon isn't a good enough playmaker to play PG, I think you can run a percentage of your offense with him starting it and making plays....and yes he will turn it over sometimes as well.

    I think Lou is what hurts us against the Warriors in this position, although he is a hellava scorer and 6th man. The problem is his defense in trying to guard anyone. If he is on Clark, then Bev is on Livingston, or vice versa. Either way Livingston would be killing us on posting up on the baseline against either of them, so we need to upgrade that position to a better, taller 3 and D shooting guard that can switch assignments with Bev so that we put Bev on Clark and that SG on Livingston when the bench is in.

    Still unsure on a target for that as I write this, so maybe some of you can give some suggestions for this need. Lou will probably be packaged as I will mention next. So therefore, until we find that backup SG that can fit our system and also guard Livingston, the Warriors have the edge here still.

    SF
    Durant & Iggy vs Ariza & Dekker

    Obviously if we stayed with this, even if Dekker improved TREMENDOUSLY, we are still losing this matchup by a WIDE margin. So I think we need changes. This is where we need the "stars" to lineup!

    So, we have to PRAY that PG13 demands and gets a trade out of Indy for all the goodwill he has there, and they send him to the destination of HIS CHOICE, not the one with the best trade assets, or otherwise we are out of it. So if he demands a trade, and chooses us, and they agree, they we have to give the best package to them to make it at least somewhat worthwhile, since they will be doing PG13 a solid and giving up a better package from say Boston or someone else. I know everyone says PG13 wants to go to the Lakers, but we pitch him on putting together the ONLY team that can challenge the Warriors over the next 3 to 4 years in the West. So if he wants to compete for TITLES, we are his best option.

    So we trade Anderson/Lou/Right to Llul & Gentile/and 2 first round picks to Indy for PG13. Sure, they can do better, but they do it because the "stars" lined up and we give them some value for the trade.

    Now we have Durant & Iggy vs PG13 & Ariza....GS will still have a slight advantage, but we are now competing with them at least on a game to game basis. On to PF.

    PF
    Green & West vs (well we have no one now)

    So the "stars" have to line up AGAIN for us. Here are some possibilities. Since we got PG13 with only a trade and actually maybe saved some salary on the cap by adding Lou, I think we can still clear up maybe 20 million or so in salary. I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me. But my first scenario doesn't require it. Here goes....

    Carmelo get's bought out in NY! With his buyout, and still getting a hefty penny from NY, he comes to us at a HUGE discount to try to salvage his name and compete for a Championship by joining Harden and PG13. He takes a 2 year deal, 2nd year PO, for only like a mid level exception or something in that range, in order to allow the Rockets to sign a great backup for him to compete for a Championship. Superfriends teams are the ONLY way to win a CHIP at this point, so he is doing this ONLY because he is sold that it's his only way to win a chip.

    Now with the rest of our money, we try to get either Gallo or Ibaka on a discount for 20 mil, more or less with whatever we have available....to backup Melo at the four, or Melo off the bench for 6th man of the year if it's Ibaka...for defense. Either way, both of our then PFs would be getting 30 plus minutes a game and also extending their career by not playing high 30 or 40 minute games.

    Now we have Green & West vs Melo & Ibaka/Gallo I like our matchup here and think we are either even or a slight edge.

    C
    Pachulia & McGee vs Capela & Nene

    While I would be comfortable with this, and also hope Nene comes back to us on the cheap, I would like to upgrade the backup C position. I am perfectly happy with Capela as our starter and expect him to be even better next year if he continues to improve like he has each offseason. But we need another shot blocking/rebounding focused Center to back up Capela, and we need a cheap one since we are pretty much all out of money by now. So we need another Veteran or FA to come join us on the cheap as a backup to Capela. Maybe you all can help me with who some POTENTIALS would be for this spot, so that we can move Nene to 3rd string backup for a vet minimum deal if he wants to play one more year with us. If we can find a decent rebounding and shot blocking backup C, then I give us the edge slightly in this position because McGee is playing his role very well in GS.

    Injury protection & Other backups
    GS - Barnes, McAdoo, Jones, McCaw
    Rockets - Dekker, Harrell, Williams, Wiltjer, Onauku, etc.

    I would definitely like to keep Dekker, unless he is needed to pull off a trade that helps us achieve one of the above. I love Harrell, but if he doesn't develop a 3 point shot above 35%, then MDA won't go to him at PF ever and he can't be our backup Center in small ball....especially not in the playoffs. So I'm okay with moving him in a trade to upgrade one of the needs above, or keep him if it's not necessary. Same goes for Wiltjer and Onauku. But with this group, I still think the Warriors are stronger than we are in injury and other backups because their players know how to play in that system better and therefore perform better than they are individually. So I wouldn't mind seeing some better signings on the cheap from Veterans, etc. to make us strong on the backup/injury protection front.

    So finally we would have (if all the "STARS" aligned) the following VS GS:
    Harden/Bev VS Curry/Livingston
    Gordon/?? VS Clay/Clark
    PG13/Ariza Vs Durant/Iggy
    Melo/Ibaka or Gallo VS Green/West
    Capela/?? VS Pachulia/McGee


    From a top 10 players perspective, I think if that was our team, we could challenge and beat them if Harden showed up with a clutch gene in the playoffs. I still think it would be a 7 games series, and home court would be a huge factor. But I also think if we had this team to start the season, we could possibly win 65 plus games during the regular season to put us in the hunt for best record in the West. Cause you never know what can happen between injuries and GS starting to rest during the regular season like the Cavs did this year.

    So again, while NOT LIKELY....this COULD HAPPEN. So don't flame me. I'm looking for a celestial event to put us in contention.

    Feel free to add to this with other possibilities that you think COULD HAPPEN!

    P.S. - Still disappointed from the end of this season, but a Rocket's fan for LIFE!
     
    Os Trigonum and Tha_Dude like this.

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