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Alex Bregman called up...... for real!

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by tellitlikeitis, Jul 24, 2016.

  1. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    It doesn't work that way... a pitcher has far greater market value. Sale would fetch a fortune if the Sox made him available; he's arguably the best pitcher in the AL signed to a ridiculously club-friendly contract. And he's 27. They'd laugh at an Altuve-for-Sale deal; hang-up as soon as you introduced, "and..." into the conversation.
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Disagree with most of this.

    Altuve had sneaky power in the minors. He's continued to grow stronger, continued to work on hitting to all fields, and now its all coming together. Being selective is one thing... but seeing an astronomical rise in his walks is directly attributed to improved power (as has been seen in other selective... then prodigious guys like Bonds, Bagwell)

    Your characterizing him as a slap hitter incapable of traditional power because of a concise swing is a gross mischaracterization of his unique abilities... I suspect you'll never fully get or appreciate what he is (a freak... which you don't bring up the possibilities of trading with every Kemp, Bregman, or whoever comes up).

    And its not just "he's always made good contact"... he makes freakishly good contact, on balls that most hitters (let alone dwarf-size hitters) have no business hitting. Now he's not only continuing to get to those pitches... but he's driving them for XBH's/HR's.

    Bregman and Correa may very well be more productive over the next 3 years... or Altuve is just beginning a truly historic run of productivity (but yeah, I know you feel that he's finally probably peaked... now... sorta like 2015... sorta like 2014...).

    Alas, I guess there will always be a time/place for the annual Hey Now! criticism of the guy who right now would be the most likely candidate to be the first ever Astros first-ballot HOFer....
     
    #362 Nick, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  3. LongTimeFan

    LongTimeFan Contributing Member

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    Can you give an example of a true ace pitcher traded for star-level ML talent + great prospects?

    I honestly can't think of a deal for an Ace that involved one team trading guys on the level of Altuve/Correa/Bregman.
     
  4. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    There really hasn't been.

    Good article here: http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/teams-rarely-receive-equal-value-trading-ace/#P3zhfcht1vtTmwQ5.97

    Oh how I wish there was a similar Cliff Lee, Sabathia, or even David Price trade opportunity available this year... man, some of those heralded prospects didn't even come close to making it.
     
  5. Htown Stros

    Htown Stros Member

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    So why is this even being discussed? No team is going to trade that much talent for Sale and the White Sox don't have a reason (I.e. Contract year) to trade him. Honestly, I wouldn't trade Altuve straight up for Sale regardless of need for an ace. First and foremost, players like Correa look up to this guy - the same guy who hasn't complained about how bad his contract is and continues to want and get better. Meanwhile, Chris Sale is out there cutting up jerseys - not saying that's a huge deal but Altuve is more than just an outstanding player, his character is of the likes of Craig Biggio.
     
  6. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

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    The one citing in the article where the team trading an ace actually got better war in return was the one where the Astros were involved in the Randy Johnson deal.
     
  7. HeyDude

    HeyDude Contributing Member

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    I'd be open to Bregman for Sale for only one reason: The free agent market for pitching this year is terrible but there are plenty of stud batters available. Not that you can replace Bregman but you can add a really good bat in the order, and we already have Springer, Altuve, Correa, (FA), Yuli, Gattis. That's solid enough of a lineup. But can't go into next year with just Keichel, McCullers, and then ??? to start next year.
     
  8. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

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    Article is flawed because it shows career WAR post trade. Rental trades don't help the receiving team past that year.

    Players aren't traded because teams think they aren't good, it's often because they can't keep them.
     
  9. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    With the Astros' million draft picks they don't have any good pitchers in the minors?
     
  10. MrBear1

    MrBear1 Contributing Member

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    WE have a ton.

    Whitley
    Abreu
    Perez
    Martes

    just to name a few
     
  11. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Its also flawed because the player's WAR that made that deal favorable (Carlos Guillen) happened to occur when he was in Detroit, not Seattle.
     
  12. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Or at the very least... they have a ton of potential prospects that another team may deem worthy of trading an established pitcher for.

    Unless they have a Glavine-Avery-Smoltz-Zito-Hudson-Mulder like home-grown pitching run in the works... they're better off getting something established before the prospects lose their shine.
     
  13. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    No... that's not how it works. This is fairly fundamental. The foundation of Bonds' and Bagwell's greatness - hell, the foundation of any great hitter - was their ability to be patient, work counts and drive balls they could hit.

    You don't develop a power stroke *and then* get selective and patient and start to draw more walks. Just look at his pitch chart; he's not driving ****ty pitches all over the park.

    I agree; it is a "gross mischaracterization" because I never called him a slap hitter.

    He's a high-contact hitter with an efficiently fast swing - that's deadly if he's hitting good pitches; Altuve routinely did not. He chased everything. Again, this, I assumed, was fundamental - but it's easier to drive a fastball over the plate than it is a curveball outside the strike zone.

    Altuve has the unique ability - again, because he's so freaking quick - to put bat to ball on bad pitches. But he wasn't driving that ****. His slugging % is up 133 points this year; if you don't think - or fundamentally understand - the correlation to patience and power.. I mean, it's baseball 101. No - it's a pre-requisite for baseball 101.

    [​IMG]

    I never said 2015 was a peak; I (and many others) worried 2014 would be an anomaly, a statement I (we) made as we watched him regress for the first half of 2015. And let me stop because you pull this bull**** and always strip the context. I don't know when the Altuve-trade talk came up here in '15 - but this was Altuve's slash through the ASB last year: .293/.335/.412. That's -48 points in batting average; -42 points in OB%. And you know what it sorta, kinda looked like? His first 2.5 years in the league: .285/.323/.377.

    We weren't randomly calling to trade Altuve; we were legitimately questioning if 2014 might've been a giant fluke.

    But then he got progressively better in '15 and even better in '16, and I've never ever, not once admitted otherwise. The only reason I have to answer for it is because you keep bringing it up. I own what I said about his 2014 season.

    I'm not criticizing jack ****. It was a "what if" exercise - feel free to play along. I think I'm on pretty sturdy ground suggesting that if the Astros really wanted to make a huge offseason acquisition, and that meant they *had to* trade Bregman or Correa, that they'd be better off trading Altuve. Disagree?

    But as I said in my very first response, because I knew you'd pull this bull**** the minute I mentioned Altuve... "I don't think I'd touch any bats of consequence, even for Sale."

    I wouldn't trade Altuve; I think the Astros have a scary-good offense developing.
     
  14. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I don't know if a pitcher of Sale's talent, age and contract status has ever been dealt.

    But... looking at last year's free agent market:

    Chris Davis: 7 years, $161M
    Justin Upton: 6 years, $132.75M
    Jason Heyward: 8 years, $184M
    Zach Grienke: 6 years, $206.5M
    David Price: 7 years, $217M

    It seems pretty obvious teams are willing to pay a significant premium for top-flight pitching.
     
  15. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    Because tmac suggested we deal Correa for Trout, which came on the heels of me listening to Paillio discuss how any Astros trade for Sale would have to include Bregman.

    It's just a "what if" exercise...

    Yeah; sorry - character stuff is meaningless, IMO. I only care about what happens on the field; I don't care about Carlos Correa's mentor, or marketing, or... I'd deal Altuve straight up for Sale in a heartbeat. (I think...)

    Look - it's just meant to be a fun exercise. If you *had* to deal one of Altuve, Bregman or Correa, which one would you choose. I'm not advocating for it.
     
  16. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    You just don't get him... you never have.(again, grossly mischaracterizing him as simply being "quick"... he's got freakish hand-eye coordination... and now evolving power with that).

    When you do, you'll stop getting yourself into debates regarding him... because really, you're the only one who's continuing to debate here.

    You're really the only one suggesting he's now likely peaked, which you have mentioned before.

    You can also stop using the preverbial "we"... I don't see the other doubters coming back with the same frequencies and trade recommendations.

    In regards to his "patience being everything"... he's really not seeing that many more pitches now. 3.48 vs. 3.23 last year. He was at 3.28 in 2012. He sees far less pitches than Correa, Springer, or even Marwin freakin Gonzalez.

    I know its a fun exercise (to you)... but I can also concur with the viewpoint that those that never supported Altuve to begin with will likely never fully embrace the freakish unique skill-set that come with being a possible HOF-caliber player. And yes, you are criticizing him... or as you put it "BTW, don't conflate criticism with not liking... "
     
    #376 Nick, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  17. tmacfor35

    tmacfor35 Contributing Member

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    Hey Now.

    See what our discussion did.

    Ha it blew the thread in the wrong direction!!!!
     
  18. jakedasnake

    jakedasnake Member

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    I'm not sure where else to put this but considering Altuve's slump started with the Rangers series I am really down on him right now. Just doesn't seem to play well against the Rangers for some reason which bugs the **** out of me. I went to the game where he completely half assed a tag on Odor stealing 2nd that should have been an easy out and a run ended up scoring. What the **** was that? Altuve needs to start taking this personal or else guys like Odor and other nemesis teams are going to out compete him. Everyone did everything right except Altuve half assing the tag instead of snapping it on Odor. It wasn't even some magical slide. Altuve just came up lame and he will have to prove more to me against the best teams in the league before I would name him MVP. Hopefully he was as upset at that play as I was.
     
  19. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    He's swinging at fewer pitches this year (46.3%; down from 52% and 51% the past two years); more specifically, he's swinging at fewer pitches outside the strike zone (31%; down form from 37.7% and 35.9% the past two years.) He's already set a career high in walks and that PPA you cited is also a career high (and up from 3.10 in '14).

    IOW, as I said, he's being more patient and selective.

    But what do I know?
    LIAR!
    LIARS!

    You know what's funny? It actually wasn't a "we" initially
    And then these other, no-name, know-nothing posters got involved...
    Funny how you always seem to only call me out; maybe that's why the "proverbial" we doesn't exist, huh, Nick?

    If it's not fun to you, go away. You're not being forced to participate. "We" think it's fun.
     
    #379 Hey Now!, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  20. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    And yet you suspect he has peaked and could regress (or that the Altuve of the last 2 weeks is the real Altuve)... Despite his rejuvenated approach with selectiveness (which again goes hand in hand with power... Pitchers are pitching around him more than ever before).

    And as of now, it's just you. Using "we" to try and back up your current opinions is misleading. Obviously he hasn't proved enough to you yet or you wouldn't still be arguing and trying to explain the genesis of your viewpoint via the bbs search function.

    Just bow down to the future first ballot HOFer and appreciate the freak of nature that's in front of you... That's what "we" are doing.
     
    #380 Nick, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016

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