David Cameron: Britain's EU Referendum to be held June 23

Says the resident anti-Muslim thread starter.... You complaint just comes out as hollow and lacking self-awareness.

 

Choosing a user name such as yours comes across as lacking self-awareness, and every single one of your dumbass post confirms it.

 

LOL. I didn't realize CF was an intellectual forum....

I just need to search your threads to show how much of bigoted dumbass you are. YOU are the one who started a thread about how German Muslims wanted the Berlin University to become a mosque and was so blindly bigoted you couldn't even admit your failure of a thread....

You can't actually respond intelligently to anything. I'll just continue to make fun of your ignorance when I get the chance.

 

Or several independent, self-governing nations once Scotland, Northern Ireland and maybe Wales leave.

 

The world is more connected. Global issues require global government. I'm not advocating for a one world government but establishing more global rules is a must.

The concept of the EU is necessary, but the implementation has been terrible.

 

And that's the idea the people are rejecting. While you say you aren't advocating for a one world government, you really are. That's like the wet dream of big government supporters. The bigger the government, the less democratic it is, the better they like it. To big government people, the EU is awesome.....it would only be better if countries weren't allowed to leave, that little bit of democracy is what is screwing things up.

It's all too obvious the thought process going on by the elites based on the propaganda they choose to put forward after the vote. How many times have you seen it pushed the number of times "what is the EU?" was Googled after the vote? The elites are disgusted that democracy got in the way of big government and they'd prefer the people not have a vote at all. After all, the only people you can trust to do the "right" thing are the elites.

Democracy and national sovereignty are enemies of the big government left, they always have been. The only time they approve of democracy is when the people vote to get rid of democracy.

 

There is a lot of regret going on. People feel dupped bu the Leave campaign. They already broke one promise in health care spending. People thought it was a protest Vote. There may be a 2nd chance at Remain.

 

The problem is with your generalization of "big government supporters" which skews your entire view point.

To me it's obvious how the gap between the developed world and developing world is closing at the expense of the developed world due to global labor supply glut and automation. Essentially, your "side" (to generalize) seems to be arguing for the path in the early 20th century that led to the conditions of WW1, trade wars, isolationism, and nationalism.

There is no easy way for the rest of the globe to catch up with us, but this brexit is a comical response against globalization. The EU, as currently made up, is a disaster but tearing it down isn't wise. The EU bloc is essentially the 3rd largest economy in the world so I don't get the cheering for cutting one's nose off to spite their face.

As far "democracy" how it supposed to be? This is a case study in why referendums are inappropriate for questions of greater significance than "should pot be legal?".

Locke, Mill, Adams and others upon whose thinking the US Constitution (not the same as the UK obviously but similar) is based understood the danger of a "tyranny of the majority". That is what a referendum allows. If the US had held a referendum on slavery in 1850, it's likely that the pro-slavery argument would have won. Does that make it right?

True democracy is not "majority rule", but rather a people that is governed according to a set of rights and principles to which they have consented. Where public opinion is divided, the preferences of the minority must be respected and reflected in governance. What you have here is a 52/48 vote that has set in motion a massive change to which half of the country (including a vast majority of the young) are opposed, based on a vote of an ill-informed public voting not out of reason but as a protest against a host of ills which have nothing to do with the subject of the referendum itself. In these cases it is the responsibility of a government elected by the people to act in the interests of all of the people.

 

the decentralization of political power is just the beginning

technology allows individuals to exit from political power entirely

the internet, 3D printing, bitcoin all enable a large degree of personal autonomy outside the control of any state actor

we can peacefully Exit as individuals, and they can't stop us

 

well, unless you're talking about the freedom of movement for the migrants who build those technologies. As Nigel Farage put it "I'd rather be poorer with fewer migrants." Of course, Nigel is a politician who has never built anything in his life, and has always benefitted from what others built despite him.

https://www.techinasia.com/refugee-from-vietnam-to-uber-cto-thuan-pham

A Muslim family, a penniless Hungarian who can barely speak English, and a Vietnamese boat family rejected by Malaysia. That sounds like EXACTLY the kind of immigrants Brexiters are gearing up to welcome.

 

Very strange to apply brexit to this example. Brexit is is also driven by isolation, restricting and stopping movement as much as it's about more autonomy and less regulation. Pretty bad example of an exit from political power when you are exerting political power for purposes that is against openness and free flowing and for more acute centralize control.

 

"WE WANT TO BREXIT TO APPLY OUR OWN ARBITRARY RULES FOR MIGRATION AND APPLY OUR POLITICAL POWER TO KEEPING MIGRANTS FROM EXITING THEIR COUNTRIES"

"THIS IS THE GREATEST VICTORY FOR INDIVIDUALS TO ESCAPE POLITICS AND THE EXIT OPTION"

 

It does astonish me how some people here can have such consistently awful opinions on damn near everything. The idea that people who consider things like sovereignty, liberty, and due process to be nothing more than impediments to the goals they seek actually exist is just insane IMO.

 

autonomy includes control of borders

one thing the Remain camp failed to recognize is that traditional leftists that depend on entitlements might be concerned about uncontrolled migration of people that might put a strain on those resources (and drive up the price of housing while driving down wages)

If you don't support unlimited mass migration from poor middle-eastern countries, you're just an anti-Islam bigot. That argument was sure to win people over.

 

You keep on saying those words--do you even know what the European Commission is, or is your contribution going to be repeating liberty, and due process.

Due process to what laws? Liberty from what?

Try to think at least one level deeper, please.

 

1) you talked about autonomy of individuals not autonomy of states.

can you kindly tie together whatever loose strand in your head keeps on repeating "technology allows individuals to exit from political power entirely" in this situation that clearly imposes political power on individuals?

2) can you provide empirical evidence for your contrived theories?

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/labour-market-effects-immigration

3) Brexit wasn't even focused on mass immigration from Middle Eastern countries.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

Are Middle Eastern countries in the EU?

The main complaint was actually immigration levels of Eastern European immigrants, of course, you'd choose to focus on Muslims because (???).

 

I was talking about more than one issue. There are some, yourself included, that always seem to take positions against those things. When it comes to Britain leaving the EU, you are against Britain reclaiming their sovereignty because you worry that they will put a cap on immigration. You just have such backwards thinking all the time that it is shocking sometimes.

When it comes to due process and liberty, I'm not sure if it was you but many here supported stripping constitutionally guaranteed rights from citizens based on ending up on a list with no charges whatsoever.

Anyway it's not that big a deal, I don't expect everyone to be a deep thinker.

 

Your default assumption on my position shows you don't understand my position or any of the contours of this issue. I don't expect you to read posts of other posters, but you running around every issue without even understanding the basics is quasi-annoying. What is the European Commission? What powers does a Britain outside of its quasi-compromise with the EU gain? Which powers did Britain always have?

Sovereignty from what exactly? Can you at least specifically cite what areas of supranational European Union authority you disagree with? There is a LOT of ground here, but debating with you is often like debating with the wind.

 

I disagree with the part where rules and policies written in Brussels overrule the laws made in the nations that make up the EU. If the EU passes regulations, everyone has to accept them. I fundamentally disagree with a nation having to accept laws and policies enacted by foreigners that aren't directly elected by the people.

I disagree with the entire premise of a multinational government.

 

So...you disagree with the United Kingdom as well. 85% of Westminister MPs are English, and they dictate policies to the Scots, the Northern Irish, and the Welsh.

And there are components of the EU where you have a check and balance from elected officials--why do you think Nigel keeps on getting so much facetime as an elected European parliamentarian. Am I to take from this that you have problems with the European Commission, but not the European Parliament?

You know, it's really easy to say "I have a problem with everything!" as it avoids having to discuss any particulars.

If you had read my posts, you'd have already known I think this is a net positive for several factors, but it's hard to discuss specifics with somebody whose response to anything is "sovereignty!" "due process!" "liberty or death!" "you're an anti-liberty diehard!"