Fight for his men? LOL? It was well established that they were seriously outnumbered. Attacking head-on was suicide (as was proven) and they KNEW it. They specifically talked about making Ramsay attack them "full-tilt" and built trenches and everything on the sides to prevent a pincer. (funny scene!) Jon Snow lost his temper. He issued no orders to his army, he just rode forward, got his horse shot out from under him and then stood there with sword drawn ready to die as the cavalry charged him. He was actually surprised when his men collided with Ramsay's as he didn't realize they were behind him, likely because he hadn't even thought about his men. He lost his temper. The result was that his army fought valiantly but got massacred and trapped in a horrible situation where if not for a third party they would have been killed to the last man. In summation, they drew up a battle plan that was designed on Ramsay attacking them and underestimating them. Ramsay killed Jon's brother and Jon lost his temper and threw all of that to the wind, just like Sansa warned him not to. His men got slaughtered and Sansa saved the day by bringing in Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale at the last second.
What if off screen Sansa told Jon about the Knights ? We all think John just lost his cool and charged in . Sure that's the easiest and most likely explanation, but what if he did know about the Knights . Also to everyone saying that he led his units to suicide , who is to say that if he just stays back that Ramsay actually charges him and falls into his trap . If Ramsay is such a calculating villain there is no way he goes on the offensive . He could just waltz back into winterfell . Perhaps Jon charging in was the only way to tempt Ramsay into open battle . Even if he didn't know about the Knights , an open fight is a better shot than a siege . Even if it likely is suicide ..
About this...The Starks won the war at that point. Wun Wun broke through their doors and the desperate hope for a siege defense so it was only a matter of time before the rest of the forces would descend on Winterfell... When that happens do you REALLY want to be the guy that shot Jon Snow in the back? Ramsay wasn't going to be around to reward that guy, Ramsay was on the run as soon as he saw the Vale knights.
Not only that, but Ramsay actually said he wanted 1 on 1 one combat with Jon and there were archers from both sides at that point inside Winterfell. It was a stalemate inside the castle with the Knights of the Vale routing the Bolton men outside the castle. If you were a Bolton soldier at that point you had lost, If you started firing arrows at Jon or the wildlings, the best you could hope for is to kill all of them and then get killed by the thousands of enemies outside who would walk into the now broken castle. Ramsay said something about one on one, so everyone held their arrows pointed at each other and let them fight. Made sense. Ramsay knew he had lost but was making a last attempt to win 1 on 1 to save himself.
Sansa showed no remorse after seeing Rickon and was willing to let both brothers and his entire army get slaughtered. When she comes with littlefinger, the moment she looks at Jon it's a clear ashamed ---> IDGAF I did what I had to look. Dark things her character is giving to us yes.
We won't know how his army reacts until next week...but it should be a foregone conclusion that Sansa will hold it against him Sansa - he is going to play games with you, and Rickon is as good as dead Jon - no way...I got him mad If not for Sansa's intervention Jon would be a dead man
I mentioned to someone that Sansa holding out that info about Littlefinger sure does make it look like she was ok if the result included Jon dying. Maybe didn't WANT him to die, but her goal was to take Winterfell and kill Ramsay and losing Jon and Rickon didn't really matter.
While I agree that most complain because they "predicted" it, but as the show goes on and we get more and more information isn't it obvious that we will be able to predict more and more? The more information you have, the better educated your guess is. We have like 14ish episodes left, we are 80% done with the story. The fight scene with Snow was shot beautifully, FINALLY got to see the dragons in action. (too bad all 3 haven't been free, one is significantly larger.)
Yeah, when Wun Wun broke through a ton of archers came in and started slaughtering theirs. At this point when Ramsay says he wants to duel and you are on the side of the Bolton's your best bet is to hold your arrows and hope to get pardoned later for your treachery. Either way yeah, there were arrows trained on both Jon and Ramsay and plus Ramsay goes out like a little ______. Tries to shoot Jon from afar and wasn't going to give him any preparation for a proper duel. Then gets his face smashed.
People keep assuming that Sansa knew Little Finger was going to show up and withheld this info from Jon. Did I miss something? My understanding is that she sent the message to Little Finger, but heard nothing back, so she didn't know that LF was on the way. Therefore, the only info she withheld was that she sent the message in the first place. Withholding the info that LF was on the way is a major betrayal and doesn't make sense from the perspective of defeating Ramsay. Withholding the info that she sent a message to LF, but never received a reply is much more understandable.
I agree with this. I take it as him as truly willing to give his own life for family, honor, and fighting for what is right. Where Jon is getting unfairly blasted by the hypercritical this week is because his troops charged in after him. That wasn't Jon's call. He drew up the plans to hold fast, and I believe it was Davos that couldn't let Jon get massacred and ordered the charge. When he bolted in there knowing he might die trying to save Rickon, he likely was thinking that if he falls but Sansa survives in a win, its worth it to him. But trying to save Rickon was the right thing to do. Jon was willing to risk his life for Rickon his brother. His soldiers all risked their lives to save Jon & fight this battle for the North. Ramsey should have won this battle the moment he was gifted Rickon. There was never an easy way Jon & Sansa were going to win this battle without tough decisions and lives being lost. The only thing that I don't understand (well I understand from a writers perspective for the surprise last minute save plot) is Sansa withholding her request to Littlefinger to Jon, but I expect (since the preview teases a discussion between Jon & Sansa regarding trust) that we will get an explanation as to why she did what she did in the finale. People complain about lack of explanation at the time all the time, and at the same token they will complain because there is too much exposition given. You can't have it both ways people. GOT has always been best viewed as 10 chapters with incomplete story lines that either feed into the next seasons story arch or conclude at the end of the season. And in many cases these actions that wrap up the season also kick off the next season (see Jon's death, or Tyrion killing Tywin & going overseas). Much like with other criticized episodes in the past taken at singular value, I expect when its viewed as a piece of the completed puzzle, the critics of this episode will ultimately STFU.
Davos ordered the attack because if Jon died you have a bunch of wildings that see him as their only source of trust, no longer being as loyal. If he dies there really is no point in the battle. He made the plans, he knew they would get slaughtered had they gone head first and he did it anyways. Regardless of the cause, thousands lost their lives. Davos made the right call, if they stood where they were a good chance that all the wildling forces would be in disarray. Being a commander calls on you to make touch choices, just because he went with his feelings and "cared" doesn't excuse him.
So, once Rickon was already dead, Jon stopping and thinking about his next step and then charging forward on horseback alone was him doing what? His brother was dead. He wasn't risking his life for anyone at that point and he wasn't fighting alongside his men. He got emotional and charged forward in a temper tantrum seeking revenge and didn't care if he died. This isn't being "hypercritical" of the show. Jon was a flawed commander and I don't think the show tried to present it as a good thing. The whole thing with Sansa warning him ahead of time was setting it up. He fell for Ramsay's games and got messed up for it.
Sansa didn't tell Jon she even had the offer. The vale was served on a silver platter when she turned LF down and didn't even tell Jon. It's clear as day man..
I'm talking about their first meeting btw. At this point, even Brienne called her out for not telling Jon.
I read that differently. Sure he stopped for a moment to say "crap my brother just died, and this sucks" but he also noticed "crap it was a trap... now i'm in range of his archers.... audible plan... wait till the arrows are firing and charge forward to at least miss the arrows, and give myself a shot going hand to hand for a bit". I guess its semantics here, but in the end, yes of course Jon is a flawed commander in GOT. He's honorable to a fault. Even Ned wasn't that honorable as him in battle (as seen in the TOJ flashback). The GOT universe paints it obvious that the honorable characters rarely win the war. Jon simply got lucky this time just as Ned got lucky that Howland Reed stabbed Arthur Dayne in the back of the neck, and as a parallel Sansa pulled in the Knights of the Vale at the last minute. I don't care about Jon being a brilliant tactician in this battle or in the next. What i care about is that the show keeps the character actions consistent to their nature. The moves Jon made were very much in character IMO so I don't have a problem with them.
I think you are misunderstanding me of being critical of Jon's actions as being a show failing. I was simply pointing out that he did a poor job as a commander in that moment and that should set up Sansa as more of a power player than Jon. It's not a criticism of the show at all. Jon was consistent with his character and he made a bad decision. He got his butt saved.
