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Spanoulis wins Europe

Discussion in 'NBA Draft' started by Carl Herrera, May 13, 2012.

  1. Nook

    Nook Member

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    #1 Atleast you admit that Billy wouldn't be a star in the NBA, that is a start;

    #2 The Rockets failed to win Championships largly because the Rockets could not keep Yao and TMac healthy.

    #3 If you want to play the "what if" game, if Rafer does not get the minutes, and Billy does, then it is unlikely that we can deal Rafer for Lowry. If we do not get Lowry, we do not get Harden.

    # 4 Billy did nothing for the Rockets, and being the best in a seriously watered down Euroleague is cool but does not mean his skill set would translate to the NBA, especially a ball dominant combo guard.
     
  2. basketballholic

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    1. You're putting words in my posts. I never admitted that. I'm pretty sure he would have been a star over here.

    2. The Rockets had nobody else to turn to after Yao and McGrady. They didn't have that 3rd guy to tide them over when one of the other guys got hurt. But when both guys were relatively healthy, like in the 2006-07 playoffs, the player playing the most minutes on the team was ....... RAFER!! Rafer, shooting 33% from the field and 32% from the 3-pt line, while getting WIDE OPEN SHOTS BECAUSE UTAH WAS RUNNING DOUBLES AT MCGRADY!!!!!

    3. We dealt crap for Lowry!!! Don't tell me we couldn't have dealt Spanoulis for Lowry and much more!!!

    4. At least you're acknowledging the possibility that Kill Bill's skill set could have possibly translated to the NBA now.

    Touche
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

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    #1 Very unlikely that VSpan would be a star in the NBA, only a handful of European players have been in the NBA recently, and those players tend to be post players or very skilled athletes. VSpan would need the ball in his hands, and there is no way in hell I am putting the ball in his hands over TMac. VSpan was hot garbage with the Rockets.

    #2 That 2006-2007 Rockets team was not going to win a Title, with or without VSpan, and Rafer played a huge part in the Rockets defensive efficiency.

    #3 No, we could not have gotten Lowry, because they specifically wanted a veteran point guard in exchange for Lowry. Thus we would not have a 23 year old James Harden.

    #4 I do not think that Billy's skill set translates well to the NBA at all, he is different than most of the other successful foreigners, in that he needs to dominate the ball, and he just isn't good enough for that in the NBA. Jeremy Lin learned that after Linsanity, so did Jerry Stackhouse, Ricky Davis and a list of other players.
     
  4. Nook

    Nook Member

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    *been stars in the NBA
     
  5. basketballholic

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    1. What was already known in 2006 was Rafer couldn't shoot the basketball and was a liability playing the third scorers role.

    2. VSpan was and is a plus defender. Very aggressive. His D was a big reason why they won yesterday. He's always been a quality defender. Rafer was a good defender simply because he had played in Van Gundy's system and knew what Van Gundy wanted him to do defensively and knew what the other guys were supposed to do defensively. He wasn't good because he actually stole the ball and disrupted and pressured guys and caused turnovers and wreaked havoc, all things VSpan did and does very well. There is no way you can know we would have not won a title in 2007 nor what we would have done in subsequent years. But it is known what we did with Rafer playing third fiddle.....we fizzled. It was a given we weren't winning a title with him as the third fiddle. That's one of the reasons why we were calling for Kill Bill in his rookie season.

    3. Yes, we could've still gotten Lowry if we had wanted him. Rafer would have still been a vet PG. Not to mention, once again, VSpan would have been a vet also by this time and worth more than just a guy that could dribble the ball up the court and hand off to Dwight and then clank jump shots. We could've gotten Lowry or better yet kept VSpan and he would have been worth more in trade to Toronto than Lowry was. (Rafer shot 38/32 for Orlando in 09 playoffs)

    4. Every player you just mentioned is better than Rafer on his best day.
     
  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    #1 Who said anything about Rafer being a good third option?

    #2 No, the Rockets would not have gotten Lowry without Rafer, they wanted a veteran point guard that defended and distributed. Is it possible they would have gotten Lowry at a later date? I suppose, but it is more likely than not, we never would have had Lowry, and as a result, we would not have Harden.

    #3 Of course Lin, Davis and Stackhouse were better than Rafer, that isn't the point. The point is that VSpan is a ball dominant player, and in the NBA, if you are ball dominant you sure as hell better be elite, and I don't think VSpan was or would be that type of player in the NBA.

    #4 I am glad that VSpan has carved out a really good career for himself in a watered down Euroleague.
     
  7. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

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    This graphic is ALWAYS in the back of my mind in ANY sporadic talk of Spanoulis :eek:


    This showed up in the midst of suppositions mentioned how Spanoulis was actually "killing it" in practice. And THEN - this drops in from nowhere - almost what seemed like a purposely timed orchestrated leak - of empirical evidence to refute that claim.

    Basically, looking back, AGAIN ......

    Spanoulis was a good version of "Great White Hype". He brought something semi-relatable that was lost in the Bobby Sura/Jon Barry element fans liked.
    The Yao Ming "foreign acceptance" effect was at its height.
    And he had a great nickname "Kill Bill" right in time with the culturally relevant movie of the same name.

    A lot to like. Except his actual NON-transferable attidude and skills into the American game.
     
  8. Rocket Booster

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    Spanoulis has never been a "ball dominant player" at any point of his entire career. He scores half his points OFF THE BALL.

    Spanoulis would be elite and then some in any league, especially the NBA, wher he would do much better than he does in Euroleague. The NBA is much easier to score in than the Euroleague. You have the no hand check rule (you can hand check in Euroleague), you have the defensive 3 seconds in NBA (not in Euroleague), you have to stay with an arm's length of the man in defense in the NBA, unless they come through the lane (not in Euroleague).

    NBA does not allow a true zone defense, it only allows a fake pseudo zone. And with all the man defense NBA teams play, a wider court with more spacing, no hand checking, and that defensive 3 seconds lane --->

    NBA is a WIDE OPEN BONANZA for a guard like Spanoulis. Spanoulis would wreak absolute havoc on the NBA if he was unleashed upon it. Spanoulis leads Euroleague in fouls drawn every season. Getting more fouls drawn than any bigs. This is with a CLOSED LANE in Euroleague. The lane is CLOSED the entire game, and he leads the league every season in fouls drawn, even though refs allow tons of physical contact in Euroleague. With the wide open NBA lane and refs that allow very little to no contact.....this guy would make James Harden seem like an amateur at getting free throws. He would basically live at the free throw line in the NBA.

    There is not a European basketball expert anywhere that thinks Tony Parker is as good as Spanoulis. Spanoulis is Parker plus defense, plus play making, plus court vision, plus scoring off the ball, plus a 3 point shot, plus great shooting range, plus incredible execution of the pick and roll, plus pinpoint perfect passing ability.

    Spanoulis is much better than Tony Parker is, and Tony Parker has been considered an NBA MVP candidate several times in his career. Spanoulis would be an absolute nightmare for any NBA team trying to guard him, if an NBA coach would turn him loose, rather than try to stifle him like Van Grumpy did.

    Ricky Rubio just straight out said it. The reason he plays better in the NBA than he did in the Euroleague is because due to the rules of the NBA, it's an easier league to play in. It's easier to score and play offense, and create plays for others in the NBA than it is in the Euroleague, and so therefore, just as Rubio said, it's easier to play in the NBA than it is in the Euroleague.

    Ty Lawson, Ricky Rubio, Goran Dragic, Gary Neal, Brandon Jennings, Pablo Prigioni, Jose Calderon...these guys all had totally anemic stats in Euroleague compared to Spanoulis.

    Not one of them was even remotely near the offensive production of Spanoulis, when they played in the Euroleague.

    Freaking Ty Lawson 7/2, Brandon Jennings 6/2, Rubio 7/4 etc., etc., etc. Calderon with freaking 2-3 assists average in Euroleague, and does 8-9 in the NBA.

    Spanoulis is an offensive machine. 15/6 compared to the numbers of those players in Euroleague. Hell, Gary Neal was a third string point guard in Euroleague. Pablo Prigioni was considered washed up and almost useless in Euroleague.

    Patrick Beverley was a third string point guard in Euroleague. Jannero Pargo was a third string point guard in Euroleague. Goran Dragic actually failed to make his Euroleague's team roster in training camp one season and got sent to play in another league. Another time, he only managed to get the 3rd string spot on the roster.

    Ty Lawson could not even beat people off the dribble in Euroleague, could not get his shot off over defenders, could not finish around the rim, could not score in half court, etc. Because in the Euroleague you have to play against set locked in defense with a true zone and physical play allowed by the refs. Not the pansy candy a$$ play that goes on in today's NBA, where the refs control the game and the rules negate defense almost totally.

    In Euroleague, Ty Lawson was struggling like hell to do anything at all. He goes to the NBA and BAM --> big stats right away. Same exact story with Jennings. The guy was literally awful in Euroleague. Goes to the NBA a few months later and scores 55 points in an NBA game, after averaging an incredible 6 in the Euroleague.

    The NBA is a much easier league to play in than the Euroleague. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional because they refuse to acknowledge the fact that it's exponentially HARDER to score in Euroleague than it is in the NBA, due to the refs and the rules of the NBA. Due to David Stern's "vision" of what the NBA should be. As in, a show rather than a sports competition, and that the refs and league should dictate outcomes, rather than the players and coaches. For marketing and money reasons, or what Stern calls, "basketball reasons".

    That's why all those NBA points guards struggled like HELL when they played in Euroleague, where the rules and reffing is all geared towards DEFENSE and PHYSICAL PLAY, compared to the NBA, where defense and reffing dictates that defense is almost outlawed and where physical play is very rarely ever allowed.

    You have all kinds of rotation NBA point guards that simply could NOT score or create offense for themselves or others in Euroleague. Put Spanoulis in the NBA, where defense and physical play have been just about banned, and turn him loose, and he will absolutely tear the whole league to shreds.
     
  9. King1

    King1 Contributing Member

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    Man, what a train wreck
     
  10. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    Spanoulis sucked ass in the NBA dude. Please get over it, you're embarassing yourself.
     
  11. basketballholic

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    Meaningless statement. Every player, including Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird has sucked at some point in the NBA. That means nothing. VSpan got scratch minutes, meaningless minutes, Van Gundy playing him in garbage time, sticking him in the corner and throwing him the ball with 5 seconds left on the clock. VSpan's NBA minutes were totally meaningless in seeing what kind of player he is.

    Once again, Rafer shot 33% from the field and 32% from the 3-pt line for the season and we knew what he was because he had already established his career mendoza line. VSpan should have been developed throughout the season in Rafer's position working the top and he would have been a difference maker in the playoffs.
     
  12. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    What year did Jordan, Magic, or Bird SUCK in the NBA?

    Forget Jordan, Bird, and Magic is he better than what we have now Lin? I think Lin is miles better than this guy would ever be in the NBA.
     
  13. basketballholic

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    272 minutes does not a season make. I can find stretches of 10 games where Bird, Johnson, and Jordan were all anemic. I'm not going to go do it for you. The data is all there. Look it up. Now, take all 3 of those guys, stick them in the corner of an offense for 5 minutes per game once about every 6th or 7th game when it's a blowout and throw them the ball with no time on the shot clock ...... how would they do? Get real.

    Doesn't matter if Spanoulis is better than Lin today. What MATTERED was Rafer was a bad third guy. He couldn't shoot for ..... and he couldn't finish at the rim. What MATTERED was VSpan should have gotten plenty of minutes to develop during the season.
     
  14. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    LMAO.
    V-Span didn't get it done in the NBA. Get over it. We have better guards (Lin) on the team now. No need to revisit ancient Rockets history.
     
  15. basketballholic

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    I am long over it. But I'm going to keep the record straight on it also. Once again, it's not about VSpan. It's about credibility.
     
  16. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    And comparing Euroleague to the NBA will never win you credibility. Sorry, never.

    It's probably a fun watch, and I know SamFisher used to have season tickets (came with his CSA produce box I think?) but nobody but you can sit and equate success in Euroleague to bonafide NBA credentials. Different game and very different talent levels. Period.

    Until you invent a parallel Earth and install V-Span in the NBA (while making him not miss his mother's cooking), this argument and all your threads are senseless (yet strangely entertaining).
     
  17. basketballholic

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    Not comparing euroleague to nba. compared vspan to rafer. it was obvious vspan should have been developed. he wasn't. he's a superstar in europe. and one of the best point guards in the world. he's far superior to rafer at his best.
     
  18. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Actually you stumble clumsily back and forth between these comparisons, but whatever.

    I'm honestly happy for V-Span and think he's much happier where he is than he *ever* would have been in the NBA, no matter the system or circumstance. And it gives us the chance to make more barnball jokes all the while, and I'm sure he doesn't care.

    Cheers.
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    VSpan is not one of the best point guards in the world. He is the best point guard in Europe, that is a HUGE difference.

    Besides, don't we have a minor league section? Why isn't this thread in there?
     
  20. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Ugh..... sigh.... two or three pages ago I systematically proved that your assertions and statistics were complete utter bull ****.

    Last, I will simply point out that the athletes in the NBA are vastly superior and the NBA defenses are FAR more complicated than in the minor leagues in Europe.
     

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