I Don't Always Agree with Israel, but I Understand

How else can you explain a person that is obsessed with Islam and spends his life criticizing it? I'm worried for atw's neighbors he reminds me of a lunatic on the edge of doing something crazy

 

Damn... I never will understand how religion has become this infallible entity even amongst those who claim to be non-religious. Seriously, every time a criticism of religion is brought up someone has to come along and say "But there are other problems besides religion! Why do you want to kill all people from religion X?".

Seriously, every time someone brings up an issue on the D&D, can we just retort by saying "There are other problems besides X. Why do you want to kill all people with problem X?"
The most ironic thing about the overzealous protection of religion is that those who claim that criticism of religion as "bigotry" are quick to point out "culture" as the issue... as if criticizing culture is less "bigoted" than religion.

 

=Nivos;9529519][;9529437]=Nivos;9529327]

It is so sad that you can't separate "your country" from policies of dispossessing other people from their land and not giving them full human and civil rights to the extent you want them for your own religion/ethnicity.

I accept you believe this, but this fear does not make it so.

I am sure there are other Jews who would prefer to stay just like some of the Afrikaners and whites have stayed once they were not similarly privileged.

Also I am not sure which group you are referirng to as the minority.

I get that you are very fearful..

Show me another country in Europe except for the ex Yugoslavia that has ethnically cleansed 50% of the local inhabitants (750,000) and who continues the process by home demolitions wall building and settlement construction in the last couple of centuries,
This is hardly tolerance and head scarfs, noise limitations etc. pales in comparison.

Your prime minister is firmly in the center of Israeli politics. and has won many elections. Hopefully you regret Israel's early support for Hamas as a counterpoint to Arafat and the PLO.

So who do you support for prime minister?

Are you actually claiming that Israel has such a dominating left wing??

 

Off course I want eveyone to have the same human rights as I would want and expect for myself. That's why I'm against keeping our army in the 67 border line and refuse to go there as a soldier.
But I also understand people that say that you can't retreat from there before you have a full garranty that it won't be used to attack the most populated area in Israel. That is why an agreement is a necessity and not a one side decision like what happened in Gaza.

[/QUOTE] I accept you believe this, but this fear does not make it so.[/QUOTE]

Well, history tells us otherwise

[/QUOTE] I am sure there are other Jews who would prefer to stay just like some of the Afrikaners and whites have stayed once they were not similarly privileged.

Also I am not sure which group you are referirng to as the minority.[/QUOTE]

I am reffering to the minorities within Israel, Muslims, Druze, Christians, Cherkesi, Beduins, Armanians, Sumerians.
And by looking at our neighboring countries and the calls of the Palastinians leaders to exterminate all Jews that will hide behind a tree, under a rock and even to exterminate the trees they hide behind, so yes, I'm not a hypocrete, I tend to believe them. And by being a minority in this environment you are calling for our extermination.


[/QUOTE]I get that you are very fearful..[/QUOTE]

Yes I am. You would be too.

[/QUOTE]Show me another country in Europe except for the ex Yugoslavia that has ethnically cleansed 50% of the local inhabitants (750,000) and who continues the process by home demolitions wall building and settlement construction in the last couple of centuries,
This is hardly tolerance and head scarfs, noise limitations etc. pales in comparison.[/QUOTE]


Again what happend 70 years ago is something that you will have to move on from because it keep getting us in the same loop (off corse not forget about but move on from trying to fix and re- do the past). Even if some people were driven out of their homes, most of them flee because of the war, not for some sort of "ethnic cleansing" (and it was much much less than the numbers you put in here). At the same time in Europe millions of Jews were exterminated and hundred of thouthand were refugees, Jews in all the arab countries were being percecuted and driven away from their homes too, is it sad? Yes, very much so, but this is the reality at the moment.
As for the 67 border line that was taken in the 6 days war not to be built on but to be returned in a peace negotiations with Jordan and Egypt (that didn't want it back), and it has never been declared as an official part of Israel. It is used nowdays as a "buffer zone" to protect Israel most populated region and as realestate cheap development close to the center of Israel which is cynical and hurtful and I am very much opposing it.




[/QUOTE] Your prime minister is firmly in the center of Israeli politics. and has won many elections. Hopefully you regret Israel's early support for Hamas as a counterpoint to Arafat and the PLO.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to start with conpiracy theories than I'm not the one to speak with. Israel has opposed Arrafat terrorist methods but still kept on talking with him. Israel biggest fear was what will happen in the days after Arrafat will be gone ( by the way Arrafat was a horrible leader to the palastinians, stilling billions of dollars from them, much like Hamas are doing now).

[/QUOTE]So who do you support for prime minister?[/QUOTE]
I don't support politicians at any side, I believe that a change can only come from people, and the longer we keep on running in this loop of war like our leaders are taking us, people will get more and more extremist and in seek of revenge instead of a solution.
However I have always voted to the Zionist camp (which will might confuse you but is the left wing party in Israel).



[/QUOTE]Are you actually claiming that Israel has such a dominating left wing??[/QUOTE]

When reffering to the dangers of anti-zionism movements I was reffering to the European left wing movements, but it might be a shock to you to know the Israel in its core is a socialist left wing country. The biggest operation of the Zionism movement, the Kibbutz (which in one of them I grew up) is based on Karl Marks ideas and is the longest success story of pure socialism. Small self sustained productive communities in which everyone is equal, there is no money and no hyrarchy.
The building of Israel, drying the swamps (most of Israel was covered in swamps if you didn't know) and inovating agricultue and technology came from the Kibbutz's operations.
So yes I am a lefty, but not suicidle.

 

I refuse to read posts where the quote feature is so butchered that I have to make an effort to figure out who said what.

 

ATW, good point and I have been doing the same thing.
How do you separate between the quotes?

 

Nivos;

Actually when Hamas for instance has extended truces, they are never met consistently by peaceful acts by the Israelis, only continued blockade, settlement building etc.

Well in South Africa, the colonialists decided to take steps to stop what they were doing before all resistance, including violent stopped. An important role was played by the boycott movement against South Africa, which is why the current non-violent BDS movement against Israel is so promising.

Now you seem to be reverting to force makes right. As far as non-violence the typical response to non-violent Palestinian actions has been violence from the Israeli or at least deportation of the proponents.

Many Jews and Israelis (including you unfortunately at times) make similar stupid statements about Muslims in general. So should the Palestinians constantly dwell on being killed or oppressed or expelled by Israeli Jews and never believe a word Israel or someone like you says? then what?

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As I keep repeating referring to other bad actors or countries is no defense for Israeli actions. Hey, Israel is better than Syria or Saudi Arabia, Ruwanda or Nigeria etc., but so what.

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Everyone understands the initial motivation of the original Zionist thinkers in Europe, but even as Jewish critics at the time said, it left out that to fulfill the
Zionist agenda since you needed to go and seize the land of others the inhabitants would fight back. The only way for the Jewish state was ethnic cleansing, or expelling the native people. Neither the original motivation nor the Holocuast justifies the settler colonialism against the Palestinians who were innocent of the horrible persecution in Europe over 70 years ago that you refuse to move on from . Sorry it just doesn't.

And the reason? It is because the fighting and killing has stopped. This should give you some hope that you and the Palestinians, and the Jews, too, can both move on from the events of the last 70 years that you have inflicted on each other. Similarly that South Africans and the Irish have largely moved on. Israel, because it is the stronger party and the occupying party has the onus to respond religiously to any temporary truce.

The Zionist ideology "a Jewish state"is what turns it into a Zero sum game. If both groups can share the land then it would not be zero sum. and there would be no need to fight and occupy and ethnic cleanse.

Essentially you are saying that you are willing to keep fighting for a Jewish privileged state. This ideal is not consistent with the ideas of Western democracy so you cannot expect big support from Europe or even America except for the Evangelical Christians who want the Rapture and to convert you.

 

Well its obvious that this discussion, as much as it is interesting is not going anywhere because we can't agree on the basic assumption that the Jews deserves a state of their own. Until then I will continue to support for a palastinian state in one hand without weakening the strength of Israel.

Just to clarify about my statments on Islam- I have never said anything bad about the religion. The only problem I have, and you should have too, is against the Jihadistic aspirations of its followers and the fact that the arab culture these days is a violent non tolerance culture. Do you find it not true?

 

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One thing that has not been talked about is what Israel is doing to Gaza. on behalf of the goal of Zionism to have a majority Jewish state even when this requires ethnic cleansing.

It is despicable, with the starvation, bombing of children at UN shelters, the deliberate attempt to make hundreds of thousands homeless etc. When Israel periodically invades or engages in massive bombing it is like the Warsaw Ghetto, except the Israelis are playing the German role.

The whole world sees this and they despise Israel for this. This is not anti-Semitism, which you like to see everywhere, but disgust with the action of the "Jewish state" just like it is not some sort of irrational hatred of Germans, akin to something like racism or anti-semitism, to have despise what the Germans did to the Jews during the Holocaust.

 

This post is full of lies. There's nothing in this that stimulates anybody with half a brain to debate/discuss the current situation with you.