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So is there a clash of civilizations or is it a made up thing?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Nivos, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    Let me ask you a simple question:
    Do you agree with the existence of a Jewish sate as a safe haven for the Jews? (who BTW are being killed, beaten and terrorized in France and Belgium as we speak just because they are Jews)

    If your answer is NO. Then we have nothing to talk about, as simple as that. You (off course not you specifically) will do what ever it takes to destroy me and my country, and my country will do whatever it takes to defend me and its existence.
    In Political Science it called: "Zero-Sum game". Which means, one side wins and the other side lose. Very binary, 1-0, and this is where the extremist from both sides are trying to take it.

    If you say- Yes, but... Then we can start talk about a solution in which both nations can prosper and flourish side by side.
    But you have to understand you can't re-do the past. If I could re-do the past I would create the state of Israel a hundred years ago and save my whole family that were murdered in gas chambers just because they were Jews, along with 6 million Jews that have been perfect citizens in their countries.

    The solution is there, its just up to you how you answer my first question...
     
  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    I don' know how you can deny that there is a clash of clans.
     
  3. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    It came out a bit like whining about the past, the point is that what happened happened, you can't look for revenge for the past but instead look for a brighter future. I still believe it can happen and there are other solutions other than one side will kill the other
     
  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    There are plenty of safe havens for Jews around the world. The United States being one of them. Why should there be a political state based on ethnicity? I have a lack of sympathy for the necessity of a Jewish only state when I see videos like this.<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/7NMwohMhP10" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    A father who had a perfectly prosperous life as an American citizen decides based on a fairy tale that he should uproot his perfectly good home in the US and bring his children to a much more dangerous region and on top have his children stir up the hornets nest and rile up even more hatred. He had a perfectly fine safe haven here. The reality is that majority of Jews who migrate to Israel today are perfectly safe in their place of origin. They move based on a fairy tale. No I have no sympathy for a safe haven for Jews. All of western Europe and the United States and Canada is a safe haven for your ethnicity.

    I'm serious dude. Come move to the US. You'll like it here.
     
    #64 fchowd0311, Aug 7, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  5. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I think it's kinda of silly to argue about who is against Islamic radicalism and what's happening in that region of the world or whether we should be criticizing them or not.

    More importantly, what is the solution? Sending American troops there doesn't seem to be the answer. Hard to think sitting back and letting it take hold over countries is very productive either.

    Maybe secular dictatorships are the way to go.
     
  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    The final solution to Islamic fundamentalism will occur when the world's major powers end their use of fossil fuels.
     
  7. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Yes, absolutely I believe in the right for Israel to be a Jewish state.
     
  8. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    All right, so I believe that the only chance for peace is a 2 state solution.
    When the Palastinian will abandon their aspiration of destroying Israel and abandon Hamas Jihad way then they could have a great country with collaboration of Israel, Jordan and Egypt to give them enough support to be self sustained progressive country in 15-20 years.

    It can happen, we just need to believe and try to convince them (and many of the israelies as well) that the only way is peace, and not violent resistance.
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Gaza isn't a viable homeland - it's the most overcrowded place on earth. Unless Israel is willing to actually create a viable state for the Palestinains, which they are not - I don't see a 2 state solution ever happening.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I too am in favor of a two state solution. However, Israel can do more to erode the support of Hamas and groups like it by stopping their settlements, discrimination against Palestinians, allowing them the land they need to sustain themselves etc. By Israels brutal actions, oppression and discrimination they are only going to build more support for Hamas and groups like them.
     
  11. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    States do not have the 'right to exist' and no state in the world but Israel demands that this pseudo-right be recognized by other states.

    States either exist or they don't. Other countries recognize a state or they cease to recognize it.

    Did the Soviet Union have a 'right to exist'? What about Yugoslavia? Or Czechoslovakia? Or Prussia. Saxony? If so, then their 'rights to exist' have certainly been abrogated.

    It's utter nonsense, and don't get me started on the 'right to exist as a Jewish State'. It's manipulative to the core and should insult Jews everywhere (thankfully, a large portion of Jews do see through this farce).
     
  12. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    The "right to exist" comes from the fact that the other side- the Palastinians in that case, calls for the destruction of Israel.
    In that case, Israel is doing exactly what you said- it doesn't ask anyone if to exist but doing everything in its power in order to exist, including the use of force.

    How can moderate people from Israel can support a Palastinian state when its leaders call for their destruction at any given time? Its just stupid and suicidal to do so.

    So what happens is all of you "Humanitarians" are causing more war and destruction along with the extremist from the right wing and leaving all of us who don't want to fight for a destiny of war and death.

    Very smart of you, now lets continue to fight until one side wins and the other lose, is that what you want?
     
  13. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    I agree.
    But Israel can't completely leave its presence from the west bank without an actual agreement and a stabilize strong palastinian moderate rule.

    The fear is that terrorist like Hamas or even worst like what is happening in Iraq with ASIS will take over and then the fight will be in the heart of Israel (the west bank is 20 minutes drive from the most populated area in Israel).

    No Israeli government would put its citizens in such risk

    Its as simple as that- both sides should put down their weapons, acknowledge the 2 state solution and start talking, until that happens, were doomed for war
     
  14. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    The two state solution is dead. Just ask any credible authority on this issue and they will tell you the same. Even Aaron David Miller, the former lead negotiator for the US and former JINSA shill has said as much.
     
  15. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    That's pretty depressing, especially when it comes from you that as I understand consider yourself Palestinian.

    Because Israel is not going anywhere, and so are the Palestinians.

    I choose to believe there is another solution other than war between the people, I'm a minority at the moment, but one day people would have enough of fighting and start thinking about their children instead of revenge.

    And the solution is not having just a small strip of Gazza with a corridor to the west bank, it can be a bigger country, with cooperation and land from Jordan and Egypt as well, that at this specific time of history have a common threat which is radical Islam and the Jihad aspirations.

    Off course some people will have to forget about their dreams of getting back to where their grandparents used to live, and many people would have to relocate, especially from the Israeli side, but it can happen and it will happen because this is the only solution.

    I still have hope, I'm waiting for someone from the other side that share my hopes
     
  16. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    It's a lame pretext. They have a right to a Jewish state on land they've stolen, they have the right to defend themselves as they live on land they've stolen, and if you disagree with it you're hateful, anti-Semitic, and a terrorist. *snore*
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Which won't happen any time soon, and no, won't solve the problem. These guys will keep going and going. They won't stop in the middle east.

    The only solution is through education and economic development. The West really needs to understand this. You have to make fundamentalism unappealing to the general population. The same reason this country doesn't let Christian fundamentalists have their way - because our lives are pretty freaking good.

    You fight fire with intelligence. You invest in the country in Muslim areas and build them up and equipment them so that they people living there are inherently against the destabilization fundamentalist bring.

    This isn't a clash of civilizations as much as it is a race. A race to industrialize and bring these areas into at least the 2nd world before the fundamentalist can create another Afghanistan.
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    The Taliban and other Islamists like Boko Haram, etc. try to prevent education and economic development, sadly.
     
  19. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    The problem is this extremism has gobs of money behind it. If Saudi wanted an end to this they could do it yesterday. You can't outspend the Saudis in building up these areas. For every dollar you spend building it up they spend ten cents tearing it down.

    We really need to just get off oil. This religious conflict is going to last for a long, long time. We shouldn't be involved.
     
  20. houstonhoya

    houstonhoya Contributing Member

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    How about one state for all it's people (i.e. everyone whether you're in the Negev, the Galilee, Hebron, Tel Aviv, or Gaza?)

    The two state solution is dead, the settlements rendered it as such. Wake up it's 2014 not 1994.
     

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