Well right, the Palestinians conquered the land before the Israelis took the land, but neither were "native", they are essentially the same.
Anyone can see that what trustme and Hydhypedplaya really want is not peace - they want death for the other side.
Let's say Hamas recognizes Israel (which of course it will not) and the United States drags Israel to the negotiating table. The very best result would be talks for the sake of talks. 1. After leaving Gaza to only have Hamas take over has made it politically unrealistic for an Israeli politician to seriously ever leave any land again. 2. What incentive do the Israelis really have to negotiate? After the construction of the wall they are able to virtually stop all attacks in Israel. Greater Israel will flourish in the West Bank and the Palestinians will be an afterthought. A lot of liberals and Arabs talk about demographics being the end of Israel if there isn't a Palestinian state while bringing up South Africa as the example. I think that's bunk. There was a 9:1 black to white ratio in south africa we will never get anywhere near that with Israel. Israel is already sort of a pariah state but it won't become one in the way that matters (economic). The United States will never abandon Israel and I'm sure other countries care more about getting access to israeli technology and soon to be massive gas reserves than they do about the Palestinians. Israel gets to eat its cake and have it to. The end.
Really informed post. I would just add that BDS and the International Solidarity Movement are continually gaining steam and show no signs of going away. An informed international community is what truly pressured Apartheid South Africa. Still, the movement against Apartheid became an existential threat to the SA govt when US corporations signed on to the international effort. And unfortunately, the American consciousness has yet to be significantly penetrated by BDS and ISM. Why? I'd say the Lobby, which is really an amorphous coalition of think tanks, PACs, media organizations, and corporate entities, has played the biggest role in holding US public opinion hostage.
HAHAHAHAHA! I want peace more than anyone. I pray for it. Unlike you I don't support the efforts of a terrorist state (Israel) who is hell bent on ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Good job trying to put words in my mouth.
They are being oppressed in many ways. Gaza is not a self sustainable land by itself. They don't have the resources to keep maintain it. Of course part of it is because Israel controls the water and doesn't allow Palestinians as much water as they do to Israelis. That isn't a matter for security it is separate set of rules people of one ethnicity that isn't the same for people of a different ethnicity. There are several sources on this. Some are more balanced than others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_Palestinian_territories http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html http://www.israelpalestinemissionnetwork.org/main/ipmndocuments/factsheet05.pdf There are the fact that Palestinians have been forcibly moved out of their homes. Here is a story from the economist that talks about Israel moving Palestinians out of their homes and then Israeli settlers take over. http://www.economist.com/news/middl...lestinians-are-being-driven-away-squeeze-them Israel denies housing permits to the Palestinians and grants them to Israeli settlers. Israel kicks Palestinians from their lands and relocates them. Israel until recently had a military ordnance to destroy any Palestinian business was able to compete with an Israeli business of the same type. Despite Hamas supposedly ruling Gaza, Israel has not released control of the most fertile lands of Gaza. They don't allow access to the oceanic resources. That is UN. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2010/gaef3296.doc.htm Israeli settlers destroy Palestinian olive crops, and don't face any retribution from Israeli police. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/w...lestinians-cast-a-light-on-hardship.html?_r=0 An accounting from the Carter center. http://www.cartercenter.org/peace/h...countries/Israel_palestinian_territories.html Palestinians are restricted from what roads they can use which denies them access to work. They have curfews placed on them. Meanwhile Israeli settlers are allowed to drive along and have their children play in the streets. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/26/w...ws-expand-hardships-imposed-palestinians.html That kind of discrimination has been going on since before Israeli statehood. Now there is one set of law for Israelis and different one for Palestinians. That's oppression. This is just a small sampling because of the space here. I only post about these hardships because it was asked. I don't want to give the impression that the Palestinians are completely innocent, and that Israelis don't face a real threat of terrorism because they do. I also want to make it clear that I don't believe any of the oppression and discrimination by Israel makes it alright for Palestinians to use terrorism. It doesn't.
Shows how ignorant you really are on the subject. Majority of Israelis after 1948 are Russian and European Jews who migrated en mass illegally. Majority of Palestinians after 1948 had been families who had lived there for centuries. Your failure to know this basic bit of history on the subject is your own fault. Brushing it off as 'they are essentially the same' is just sheer stupidity.
Strange, because the only person who's made bigoted, ignorant statements here is you. I guess that is expected of someone who reads Mein Kampf daily.
Russian and European Jews are a minority among the Jewish population of Israel today. As of 2005, 61% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi ancestry. Zohar Argov <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fIkpce9ZnV0?list=RD4lGLGv47gpA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> And Ofra Haza do not approve... <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/O2xNTzlFSk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Your source seems fair enough, the Institute of Social Studies in the Netherlands, but if you ask the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics, your 61% number seems a bit misleading, if not incorrect all together, especially since it claims to account for all those with ANY Mizrahi origin. http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/templ_shnaton_e.html?num_tab=st02_24x&CYear=2010 This table from the Israeli govt shows that just over 2/3 of Israeli Jews are originally from countries in Europe and the Americas. Only 1/8 of them in 2009 were of Asian origin. Not to discredit Mizrahi culture as a part of the Israeli experience, but to suggest that they are not a marginalized minority inaccurately describes Israel today.
Interestingly enough, this successful, prominent Mizrahi Jew, Eli Yishai, has made some questionable remarks regarding race and identity in israel. He is the former head of the Shas Party and is currently a minister in Netanyahu's government. He once claimed that "Israel belongs to the white man." An interesting assertion considering his Tunisian origin. http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/06/22/note-to-refugees-from-south-sudan-israel-is-for-the-white-man/
I don't think you really understand how things work. When the Palestinians stole the land, they migrated to the area just the same as you are claiming the Israelis did or are, just because that happened 1200 years ago or whatever and they didn't come from as far away doesn't make it any different in principal. Also, stop it with throwing around terms like "illegally", it's pretty foolish. The obvious question anyone would ask would be "Illegally according to whom" and there will always be a problem of legitimacy and authority no matter what your answer.
Shas leaders also believe that wizards are using magic against them and most of them can't do basic math. They are Israel's version of Hamas. Ethnicity is tricky: some regard North Africans as not mizrachi, some include everyone who is Sefardi, including Bulgarian and Greek Jews (and anyone else with Spanish or Portuguese orgins), and those with Sefardi traditions and ancestry in the Americas, and there are lots of mixed marraiges. However you slice it, Ashkenazi Jews are definitely less than 50%. In the fifties they came to Israel as refugees because they were kicked out of Middle Eastern countries as a response to Israel's statehood...they weren't very politically ideological. But in the span of two generations they went from Black Panthers to right-wing voters and are the main bloc keeping Likud and Shas in power. It's a rather significant unforseen consequence as it kicked the tradtional Labour-Ashkenazi elite who established the country out of power (largely deservedly so because they were so bigoted towards the newcomers), but with their nationalistic and religious beliefs, it also keeps a peace government from being elected.
I don't disagree with any of this, just wanted to draw attention to the 61 pct figure. It's misleading, because like you said, there is too much ambiguity in definition. Sure, but Ashkenazi Jews are not the only European Jews in Israel, that was more my point. As such, I refrained from using the term Ashkenazi. Furthermore, Mizrahi Jews are certainly not European.
This is what the free world is dealing with - in Berlin, and here on the forum: <iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ov00rNamNig" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Hate preachers.
Yeah, it delegitimizes the debate. He makes it sound as if the global Jewish population just waltzed into Palestine and took the land on a whim. He neglects to mention the 6 million of them were murdered before 1948.
Not it wasn't a whim, it was a very calculated and intentional immigration by Zionists. If you want to give Jews a homeland then Munich or Berlin would be more appropriate since that's kind of where 6 million of them were murdered.
I wouldn't mind more Jewish people in Germany - they are civilized, smart and educated. I am sure they could make us a better country. Unfortunately, I can understand why many of them wouldn't want to live here. But we do have an active and respectable Jewish community in Germany.
