ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Celtics 1/13/2014

You make a good point here, but I think you touched on why the Lin vs. Harden comments tend to lead to LOH/LOF tags. Here's where I think the disconnect occurs.

Postulate the following:
Harden is a better player than Lin. He's on a different level. Yes he has flaws and needs to work on areas of his game but I think we have a large enough sample size to all agree on this, correct? So any discussion that directly compares those two players is going to be unfair. If we agree James IS a better player, it makes sense that he gets a longer leash from McHale, more calls from referees, can call for the ball easier, etc, yes? If we point out that Lin has a better FG or 3PT percentage, TS% EFG or other statistical advantage some posters will assume we're trying to say Lin is a better player. Heck, some people may believe Lin IS the better player and are stat posting in an attempt to prove their point.

For me it all boils down to expectations. I never expected to see Linsanity level play from Lin as a Rocket. I was hoping for a high end of 16/8 with a decent FG% and improved turnovers. He's close to that now. So I'm not displeased with his overall performance. Yes, it's frustrating when he makes what appears to be a rookie mistake but again we're back to expectations. I don't expect him to be CP3 or Parker. If I had to put a pin in what I dislike the most it would be the streakyness, but again we are talking about a 3rd or 4th option player here. It's like complaining about our third string WR's drop issues.

Now Harden. I hold him to a higher standard because I believe he's a better player. When HE makes bonehead plays I'm more frustrated because his bar is higher. We've seen it higher. However when he has off shooting nights or decides to slack on defense I understand why he gets a little more leash from the coaches and our fans. We've seen what he's capable of night in and night out. And I believe he IS still learning how to be a star and a go to guy. Even MJ went through this in his early years.

So, based on my expectation levels for both players you could call me a LOF if I defend Lin when he plays at or above my expectations, or you could call me a LOH when I am critical of him. The same applies to Harden. It is very tricky because how I feel is obviously a reflection of personal expectation, which will vary widely based on poster.

What really gets to me is when people attack other Rockets players (and fans) in an attempt to prove their allegiances are valid. If you love Lin above all, that's fine. Just don't bash Harden, Dwight, McHale and the guy that serves the nachos in an attempt to spotlight Lin. And if you're on the other side, don't attack Lin or witch hunt posters because a few of them are irrational.

Criticism and praise when and where it's due and we'll all have a giant group hug after we win that first playoff series .

Just some thoughts, apologies if it rambled on there a bit.

 

Last year I created a thread to see how comfortable people were with Jeremy as the starting pg and how many wanted him benchd or traded guess what the results were??? Look at what your doing right now, defending him. Anytime anyone says anything negative about Jeremy it is met immediately with someone saying something to the contrary. Yes the majority of people on this board love Jlin. Have you seen the Harden meme thread, no one is defending James and his ISO Ball, now create a Lin hate thread and see what happens. The actual Lin hater population is a lot lower than you think.

 

alot of former NBA players under 30 with those qualities are out of the league now. "flashes of brilliance every once in a while" just doesn't cut it..

 

i guess we hired the wrong chin last year when we grabbed ho chin instead of this dime

 

i feel bad for the sexy wexys of the city. how do you even compete against an abby chin, talented and talented. it's unfair.

 

Totally false and once again a perfect example of tunnel vision. People do defend Harden's ISO. Read the threads. They say that he is our superstar and that's how Harden plays so we need to be ok with it and just have the team adjust to it. Plenty of people on here say that.

 

Are you sure about that?

There are some who do defend Harden and his ISO ball with their main argument being "He's the star and is several magnitudes better than Lin, he can do what he damn please"...

Now, go take a look at some of those LOH, many were/are already members even before Lin came to Huston. They point out that they are "ROF". Does that give them the right to go hating on the kid? These are the exact same people who go shouting out that Lin is a scrub no talent hack who isn't worth a single penny.

The sad thing is that these people have a lot of weight on this forum as they are "veterans" and demand respect and crap like that. But from what I've seen from these people, they don't deserve a drop of respect as they are biased and full of hate.

Go check the "Lin making a case for starting or something like that thread" and you'll see what I mean. Lin has had some good games and even after these good games you'll still see these same people going ballistic on Lin's ass.

If there weren't so much Lin hate, do you think people would feel the need to jump in Lin's defense? The kid's a good guy, does what he's told. Does what is best for the team without going all Asik and stuff and yet he gets insulted and labeled a scrub and all that crap by these people.

Also, are you sure I'm defending him? I was questioning your claim that majority of the people here loves Lin, which isn't what I see. Most of what I see is that there's this LOF blaming the coaching and stuff then comes 2 to 3 LOH going all ballistic on Lin.. is that right? the LOF is the one doing all this crazy claims and yet its Lin who gets all the crap. thats just not right. If people feel the need to go crazy on someone, go ballistic on the LOF and not on Lin.

Then again, even without LOF crazy posts, you can still see some pot shots and bating from some people like "lin is just a below average pg and a scrub" which naturally will make LOF go crazy especially after a good game from Lin.

This is very obvious on game threads. If its a win and a good game, decent discussion. If its a win but ugly or a lose, it all goes to hell with LOH VS LOF and mostly starts with..

LOH: "lin got blown out, he sucks balls" and naturally,
the LOF will come in with :"he played ok, he even shut down xxx player to 5/18 shooting and **** like that". then
LOH: "that xxx is a scrub, lin is a scrub! he sucks!"
LOF: but beverly did 2x/2x on parker, lin did better on his guy tonight
LOH: parker is a gajillion times better
LOF: lin shut down parker even better
LOH: nuh uh, its a team effort. lin didn't do squat

or

LOF: damn coaching sucks
LOH: no lin sucks
LOF: no, lin isn't being used right
LOH: nah uh, lin sucks
LOF: lin is being forced to play sg/pg/spot up shooter etc so many hats that he can't be consistent
LOH: nah uh, lin sucks and is below average and doesn't belong in the NBA

WTF is that? is that even right? double standards and blind biased to the highest level.

 

Yea we chose the HO and it backfired.

 

Basketball related. I have no idea what McHale does off the court. But the reality is that he treats players differently. I'm not the only one who sees it. Lin is told that he needs to play better D while Harden and Brooks can ignore that facet of the game with no criticism from McHale. Lin will get pulled after missing a few shots but Brooks plays the 4th while shooting 1-8. Harden makes back to back dumb turnovers and leads the team in turnovers and never gets yanked after making one but we've seen Lin pulled plenty of times after he makes a boneheaded play.

It's McHale's team for now and he can do what he wants. But clearly he treats certain players differently under the same circumstances- which is a bias.

 

Lol, that pretty much sums up this week's discussion on ClutchFans.

 

Harden gets a free pass since he is the superstar after all...and i have to agree, you let your best player do his thing...

but i do agree with brooks...and bev even.

 

Also, I don't have a problem with criticizing Lin when it's due. I do it all the time. Just like criticizing Harden for his ISO or Garcia for his... Well... Everything this season cuz he is sucking. The problem comes when people criticize Lin for things like not being able to shoot (when he clearly is shooting the ball well this season), not being able to defend guys (when he has shown that he can defend- and defend a heck of a lot better than Harden, Brooks, Garcia, Casspi) or retreading the tired argument that Lin has a problem with turnovers, when he has shown vast improvement here and is averaging less than 3 a game while both DH and Harden average more). LOH's have all the right to make these comments but people have just as much right to debate that. The funny thing is that LOH's use the eye test to defend their points while people who defend Lin, when justified, have solid stats to back it up.

 

But are those the exact same circumstances? Those are three great players to use as examples because they're so different. Make yourself coach for a day.

Note: These are EXAMPLES only. They do not reflect my personal opinion.

1) Does Brooks bring more shooting consistency than Lin in a large sample?
2) Does Harden have the potential to make up for his turnovers at a higher clip than Lin?
3) Has Lin shown the tendency to lose confidence after he's missed a few shots?
4) Are all turnovers created equal? (I used an example of this in another post. A bonehead pass vs. getting the ball stripped on a drive).

I don't disagree that McHale keeps Lin on a short leash. I think it's obvious to all of us. WHY he does it is less clear. Lack of trust? Closed racist? Personal grudge? Hatred for Les or Morey?

If all you were trying to say is McHale treats different players differently I think that's a fair statement. If you had a staff of ten employees with varying strengths and weaknesses I bet you'd treat them differently as well, even in similar situations. But if you're inferring that McHale has an agenda for his bias I would have to disagree.

 

I'm ok with giving Harden more slack than Lin too. It's the nature of the game and he is our star. But it's still a bias. If a teacher has two students and one is honor roll and one is avg, the teacher would be biased if he let the honor roll kid play his DS or talk on their cell phone during class while punishing the other kids for that same act. And like the previous poster said, I expect more from Harden for being out superstar. He gets paid max money- Lin doesn't. So the least Harden can do is try to put some out some effort on the defensive end.

But your last two posts are spot on with great points.

 

I see where you're coming from now and I do agree. The classroom example is a good one. That sends a bad message to other players, even if we all know it happens to some degree (defensive lapses, etc).

 

Great points. I don't think it's an agenda. No to the AB shooting. Lin's a better shooter this season by far. Brooks is just barely at 40%. But yes to the rest and all fair in consideration. It ultimately comes down to trust and I don't think that McHale trusts Lin as much. Maybe it's because he's an undrafted kid from a non basketball college. Maybe it's because he is Asian and there's a perceived notion that Asians aren't as good at basketball. Maybe it's because he knows that Jeremy won't speak up and confront him about the disparity. Maybe it's a little bit of all of the above. Regardless, he is on a shorter leash and that does show a bias. You just have to ask- if Garcia had Lin's numbers and played exactly the way Lin was playing this season, would he be treated the same? I personally don't think so, especially when Garcia's been playing like crap and he still gets plenty of run from McHale. Maybe it has something to do with his "death stare" (from the Clutch scares players video), and McHale doesn't want none of that. Lol

 

ack- wish I had seen this before I typed the response! I'm on my friggin phone and my fingers are killing me. Lol

It's all good debate and discussion which is what this board is for.

 

players get paid differently likewise they are coached differently

there are superstars/franchise players and there are role players

eg: number one options main responsibility is to score and to make plays while role players are asked to contribute on defense, control turnovers, and catch and shoot when open..

its like smush parker fans complaining why Phil Jackson isnt coaching/treating smush equally as kobe

 

So I guess you will agree that Harden should be treated the same as Kobe then?

 

Lol where did I say that? U butt hurt with what I said?