Could Motiejunas and Jones both move out of the rotation?

Jones didn't rebound much because Dirk plays the high pick and pop with Ellis. Kinda hard to rebound from 18 feet out. Plus... Dwight.... yeah. He's going to gobble up all of the gimmes off of missed shots.

Whether you think Jones is the guy or not, I think if you go back and watch this game, even someone that isn't a fan of Jones getting minutes will tell you that McHale put Jones in an impossible position tonight.

He could have guarded Dirk a little different. He wasn't nearly up on him close enough to affect his shot. He was off him like either he was afraid of Dirks drive, or he was trying to avoid a cheap foul. I personally would have liked to see him get into his body a little bit more.

Still... McHale needs to find ways to make Dirk work a little bit harder for shots than just sending his PF out to guard him. Its pretty much like telling Carlisle... we are going to let Dirk get his, we want to keep Ellis from driving to the hoop, and we are hoping to out shoot & score you guys.

The Mavs will out shoot just about any team in the league.

This game was the Lakers game, the Toronto game(which the Rockets should have lost), and the Clippers game all over again. They got beat by allowing jump shooting teams (and their best shooting players).... to shoot wide open shots to win the games.... Just bad coaching IMO... and I actually like McHale and don't want to fire him.

 

In my humble opinion, defensive scheming for Dirk is very simple now that he is older and has gimpy legs. I think if he is able to post up against a smaller defender that you run the double at him from the perimeter as soon as he puts the ball on the floor. Force him to give it up. And if he spots up high and catches the ball, you crowd him after the catch so he can't go straight up with the jumper, he's got to put the ball on the floor or get rid of it. And as soon as he puts the ball on the floor you attack with the 2nd defender from the blind side. As Dirk has aged I think he has become much simpler to defend and to prevent from going off like he did last night.

Now that is how I would scheme it and that is perhaps on the coaches. I did catch a couple snippets of the game video. Looks like he posted up both Jones and Casspi.


I totally agree with you on closing out the shooters. I thought at the beginning of the season that our defensive scheme would be simple. Tight, tight on the perimeter forcing perimeter guys to step in and take the long 2 or try to go to the rack against our paint D. Don't understand why we aren't scrambling at the 3-point line.


So if you want to blame last night's game on scheme and coaching...I can accept that. But I don't see Jones as a difference maker in haif-court D right now and I think that's probably his most NBA ready skill besides running the floor as an athlete. Right now, he's 5 for 10 from the 3-point line and he's getting decent looks going to the rim, and has only taken 7 midrange shots (all misses). Can he keep it up? (My suspicion is no way. I think his shooting starts to sink to the never reaches the longer he plays. But I would absolutely love to be wrong here.)

 

It does seem like we are forming some consensus on small things though.

Such as....Jones is not a lock-down defender. He's not a guy you run out there as a stopper to stop guys or at least impede/slow down the unstoppable ones. Right?

 

I'd say one-on-one... not really. He's really only about 6'8" and will have trouble with so many elite PF's right now in the game... He's got Love on Friday so that will be a very good matchup to watch defensively. He's a good shot blocker, and the thing I love is he really covers alot of ground and can make up for mistakes with his athleticism. Still not Patrick Patterson with his team defense and rotations, but its head and shoulders above where it was last year.

Like you mentioned before, he's not really bodying up people one-on-one like id like to see. Not sure if he's being told by the coaches to sag off and let them shoot over you, or not, but I'd think that he has the athleticism to body up, and still stay with guys if they drove in.

The shot blocking and paint protection with him and Howard though has been incredible which is amazing that to your point... why in the world isn't McHale utilizing Howard and Jones by running shooters off of the 3 point line and forcing them in to make tough shots in the paint???

blaming the coaching.... look, I dont agree with alot of the things they are doing, but I do think the players have to take a long look at the mirror as well. You dont need a coach to tell you that Dirk can shoot so you probably shouldn't leave him wide open, but the lack of preparation going into games defensively is pretty telling.

IMO if you just simply replaced Jones with Millsap or Ryan Anderson last night, the team probably still loses, and I think Dirk still lights these guys up in the 4th if you are playing him one-on-one, and your perimeter guys still dont know how to rotate in an NBA defense, and fight through screens like a good defensive perimeter player does.

Can Jones keep up his efficient offense-

If he's taking the shots he's taking, sure. On offense he hasn't forced anything, and most of his buckets have come within the offense. They aren't running plays for him, and most of his shots are going to come off of a double team elsewhere. I have no problem with his role offensively. 3 point wise, he's not really there to shoot 3's but its something he needs to be able to keep the defense honest with. So far so good, but we will just have to wait and see.

One nice thing he's done alot though and did twice last night was he stretched out to the corner three and when the ball rotated out of the double team, he was quick enough to make a quick move towards the basket for a dunk.

So is he a difference maker... switching Asik with him in the rotation has been a difference maker for Dwight & the spacing... That alone is reason enough to be happy he's playing at least. Are there better players out there.... absolutely... would I trade for them all day every day.... absolutely. However, is Jones their biggest issue right now that is causing them to lose games.... No way....

They have much bigger problems right now which is why in Stein's report yesterday it specifically mentions the fact that they are NOT just looking to upgrade the PF position... they are looking at overall impact first and foremost. There is just way too much emphasis right now on the PF position only as the main weakness. Replacing Jones with what they can get out there in a trade for a PF might not have as much of an impact as bringing in something that can help out the other areas of weakness they have right now. However, if the PF they are looking at upgrades the position that much, I'm all for it.

 

Agree we need upgrades other places but.....those places are in order of importance if we trade Asik

1. A big man solution - by this I mean an entire big man rotation. We have to get a legit 5 that can back up Dwight and we have to figure out or trade for that 3rd rotation big man. We need 3 primary bigs at the 4/5 spots with a 4th guy for spot duty, injury cushion, foul trouble and particular match up issues. (In my opinion for this to be a championship quality team TJones should be the 4th big under studying 3 other guys. I dont think he's ready for a bigger role on a championship team except for possibly moving up to #3 big.)

2. Point guard - We have to face facts. We're still looking for the right point guard combination.

3. A perimeter defensive knife that can defend 1 to 3 and can knock down the 3 ball.


Those are our biggest upgradable needs.

 

I'll just add some caveats to this but agree these are the big 3 concerns besides coaching & schemes which could be #1, but I'm not an advocate for a coaching change right now so we'll just table that discussion.

To add to that, I think the uncertainty of the Asik trade cannot be understated. He's going to be traded. We know it, Morey knows it, and the players know it. The sooner Morey can move him the better this team will jell and the sooner the big man rotation can know be in sync.

I think Jones can be a + for this team, but I do agree that if you can upgrade to a top notch PF and still have him coming off the bench, its going to do wonders for this team.

Where you and I differ here is the quality of PF needed to justify making the move. If its not a clearly defined upgrade, I just dont see the point.

Its still a huge question mark. I love Lin in the scoring guard 6th man role. I think he's right there with Lou Williams, and on some nights Jamal Crawford, but he's just such a liability defensively that I have a hard time penciling in him next to Harden as a starter who is also a liability, but is the best scorer on the team... Pat Bev... love this guy, but we need to be honest about him.... he's not necessarily the answer long term unfortunately, but I want him around until there is a clear answer. Just imagine how bad our perimeter D would be without Bev.... Yeah, PG situation is def. a concern.

All the great defensive teams have one, or two of them. I've said it before but If I could pick up one player right now that you could just plug in with the same group and would make the most impact (besides something silly like Lebron/Durant/George), it would be Batum. Would be a revelation for this team, and can fit in virtually every lineup.

No doubt in my mind that Morey is turning up every Rock in the world looking for someone that can fill this type of role.

 

I will eat some crow and say that Thomas Jones right now has currently fulfilled our position at power forward. I just love his play making and efficiency abilities.

I almost forgot about his stomping abilities.

 

Terrence Jones is the real deal. Our PF of the FUTURE! He is Legit!

 

Not sure I'm that high on Thomas Jones. However his brother Terrence is doing somewhat OK though the past 7 games. But you know Terrence was really only signed as an under the table agreement to get Thomas signed.

 

Funny how op disappeared from this thread. He blew it up early,now he's mia.

 

You mean this Tom Jones ? ... It's not Unusual.

 

LOL. TERRENCE Jones!! Old age is a motherfocker.

 

Love Tom Jones!

 

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Ok guys, time to revisit Jones.

Over the last 10 games here's some of his stats:

43/95 from the field = 45%

6/23 from the 3-point line = 26%

13/25 from the free throw line = 52%

78 rebounds = 7.8 rebounds per game




Not the whole picture....I'd like to see his rebounding %s, team rebounding %s and opponent rebounding %s over the last 10 games to verify what I'm seeing on the floor but don't have that in front of me.

Obviously he's come back to earth on his shooting.


Thoughts????


I still say....he's not the answer backing up Howard when Howard is on the bench and he's gonna struggle shooting the ball and defending the better power forwards in this league. If Millsap or any other vet starting power forward were on this team Jones would be out of the rotation. Yes, he has looked good running the floor. But teams are starting to figure out his game. That is....fake the 3-point shot and attempt to drive the ball into the paint for that little 8-10 footer that he is really, really good at. But now teams are taking that away and daring him to shoot the 3. That will continue until he develops something else in his game, either some sort of post up or he becomes effective shooting the ball. Portland played us perfectly....contesting all our guys at the 3-point line except Jones. They played off him and dared him to shoot it. That is going to continue.

 

statistically, sure looks like a ROTATION player IMO for the future. On the court though, and realizing Jones is only a 2nd year player, he LOOKS like he has the potential to not just be a adequate rotation player (which debating that was the whole point of this thread), but a very good rotation player who will only get better.

[also given his rookie salary with another 2 years guaranteed at such a low cost, wouldn't shock me at all if this guy turns out to have one of the better value contracts in the league after this year and becomes a huge asset in a larger deal later on]


-Turnovers- Jones has been a very bright spot here for a young player. Only averaging 1 turnover per game when everyone else in the starting lineup is around 2 to 3 a game is pretty telling that he's not playing outside of himself offensively.

-Rebounding next to Dwight Howard is a tricky skill to have. On one hand you need to account for Dwight leaving his feet to block shots, and at the same time you want to get out of his way and run the floor if you think he's going to be anywhere near the missed shot. Averaging nearly 7 boards a game I think he's definitely finding his way to the glass, and the chemistry with Dwight seems to be getting a little bit better the past few games

-Spacing- is actually pretty good despite his low shooting from the perimeter. Mainly because Jones has really done well at moving without the ball, and staying in the open space to draw his man out of the paint. Sooner or later teams will make him dare to shoot the ball more which he's going to have to work on, but he's shown flashes of range early in the 10 game stretch so maybe he just needs to work on his mechanics a little bit like Lin did this Summer.

-Team defense has been pretty good. Moves his feet well, and really helps well on the P&R. Last night his work on assisting Pat Bev in the P&R with Curry was phenomenal. Those two really made life difficult for Curry, and noticeably frustrated him. Man on man defense looks average to below average right now.

They are going to have to continue to use Dwight against the Dirks & the LMA's of the NBA right now, but that's not just a problem for the Rockets, its something most NBA teams have a problem guarding as well with traditional sized 4's. I don't see that getting any better with a move to bring in a Millsap or Young type of PF. Very few teams have someone with Anthony Davis type of length at the 4 spot. Jones is just gonna have to get better at using his lower body to take away space.

So all in all, Jones IMO has definitely looked to disprove the doubters that yes he is a rotation player at the very least, and the fact that he is only 21 years old in his 2nd year should make it a non-conversation that the Rockets need to move him ASAP for next to nothing like some had pined for here earlier.

………….

With D-Mo, obviously he's struggled to earn consistent minutes, and the team will obviously look for a more stable backup 5 in the 2nd half of the season, but I'm still against trading him for nothing this year and possibly next as well. Anyone who paid attention to Euroball and knew D-Mo coming into the draft would tell you that he's going to take a few years to contribute in the NBA. Last year it was a shock that he was able to earn minutes in his rookie year.

Unless he's needed for a major deal, I still want to keep him and see what he can become in the future. Nice frame, and skill set. Another season of off season training and he'll be a solid player. The Rockets still have 2 cheap years with him on a rookie deal after this year. If they are going to throw the towel on him, they might as well throw the towel on Canaan, and Covington as well if they have so little patience in developing players.

 

TJones has been slacking off, not boxing out and playing lazy overall.

Lots of rebounds drop to the floor around him, he is not playing with energy like he was early in the year.

Maybe his weakness is his inconsistent motor? He needs to play hard all the time, to be effective.

DD

 

ya think?

motor and dare I say mentality??

 

Slacking off??… come on DD. Please don't resort to picking favorites again like the DD of past. The guy has been working his a#$ off the past 3 weeks and has only had maybe 3 bad games(two of which Parsons was out, and was having trouble getting easy looks). Last night his help defense on Curry and Thompson was awesome, and had some huge rebounds down the stretch.

Like I mentioned earlier, rebounding next to Dwight is a tricky skill, and its almost like chemistry on the offensive end. If you think Dwight will be anywhere near the rebound, he's instructed to sprint the floor on the other end when the outlet pass goes out. On the other hand you have to pay attention to when Dwight will block shots and leave his man so you can rotate on his man for the box out. Its not as easy to rebound next to Dwight as one might think.

Last night, it was reported he had the flu, and a sprained thumb. Not making excuses if he looked "lazy" to you, but IMO, I saw a ton of effort from him last night despite not being 100%.

 

So now you're down to "rotation player for the future"? Kinda like what I have been saying...4th rotation player right now possibly working himself up to 3rd rotation player......



We're not talking about his trade value here. We're talking about his value in the rotation. I agree he's in his second year and his trade value could possibly still peak a little later......but not much later. If he continues this downhill run he's on right now his trade value is going to be very low come this summer and then next year is it. He'll have to show a ton of improvement his 3rd year to raise his trade value.

Once again we're talking about his value in the rotation. He's in the rotation right now simply because we do not have anybody else over 250 lbs to defend in the paint when Dwight takes a seat besides him, DMo, and Smith. And we all know neither DMo nor Smith can defend at all. So he's in there out of necessity right now because we don't have anybody else.

But is he a true rotation player right now on a championship contending team?? Well, at best in the perfect combination of 3 bigs he could possibly be the 3rd big. But that's at best. He would be out of the rotation on most any playoff team's big man rotation.