ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Pacers 10/10/2013 in Manila, Philippines (PRESEASON)

You are right I think it was 4/52

 

Which is the whole frickin point. You do as you're told. There's no choice. Not with a good team culture like OKC and Spurs. But you don't think they wanted to be starters? You do whatever is necessary, but don't pretend it's not a demotion.

Did McHale say he preferred or wanted to be the 6th man, or say he did whatever he was told to do/needed? Did Manu say he prefers being the sixth man, or he just did what was needed to win?

There has been no indication Lin wouldn't play sixth man, just like no indication Asik won't play or will demand a trade. They will do what is asked. Doesn't mean it is what they want, and doesn't mean they don't feel it is a demotion.

I have no idea why you're so intent on arguing there is no demotion in this. It is easy for everyone to see. Just bring up Asik's issue here, and we all understand it is a demotion. And that's backing up the world's best center.

 

Provide evidence.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--j...him-more-time-to-consider-offer-06561809.html

Nowhere did James Harden say he was unhappy being a reserved for a championship team.

I never heard of Harden saying he wanted to start over Westbrook either.

 

I never said Harden should come off the bench. Don't put my name in there, thank you very much.

 

Buddy, the biggest debate last year for OKC was to keep Westbrook or keep Harden, and to start Westbrook or to start Harden.

Then the offer to Westbrook came. And right after Harden needed to rethink his decision.

What do you think the reason why Harden needed to rethink his decision instead of accepting a 4yr/50+ mil and a championship run?

 

Well, for sure, Harden would have preferred Westbrook's role. He'd get about 8 more minutes a game, and he'd still be the lead ball-handler and playmaker when he's on the floor.

But that's a different situation than what Lin is facing. Here, as a starter he'd be sharing the ball with James Harden in the backcourt -- and we know what the pecking order is between those two. Lin has more to benefit, in terms of being more free to run the offense, by being a reserve here, than Harden would by going from Westbrook's role to a bench role in OKC. Sorry if that last sentence is confusing, but hopefully you get my point.

 

what are you saying? that Ginobli isn't the 3rd best player on the Spurs since he's not starting?

 

And Lin was a starter all of last year. This would be a "demotion" - when you've been starter for a period of time and you're no longer starter, you've been demoted. It might be the right thing to do (I agree with BBAB on this that it's not the right thing to do for the reasons he mentioned, but am open to the idea that Beverley might end up being the better fit).

I think it is better to stop talking about whether Lin being the 6th man is a demotion or not (because it is) and focus more on why people think it is a good idea/bad idea. Lots of reasonable arguments on that issue.

 

That has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the discussion at hand.

You have provided nothing but conjecture.

Show me a link or interview or anything that says Harden was unhappy being the 6th man, and wanted to start over Westbrook.

 

I miss the multicultural starting 5 we had
Lol just kidding. Good win for the rockets. This team is oozing with potential.

 

I'm suggesting that virtually every single NBA player will take it that way, not matter what they may say. I'm not saying Lin won't take it well and thrive. I'm not even trying to say that some people might not benefit from being the 6th man instead of a starter. And I'm not saying there's no value and gratification for being the 6th man. But I bet if you polled every NBA player and asked if they would rather be a starter or a 6th man you'll get 95% that say they prefer to be a starter. A demotion occurs when you and others feel you've gone from a bigger role to a slightly smaller one. Lin spent a year as a starter. If he is moved to the bench a year later, he's been demoted.

 

has Ginobli ever started with the Spurs?

 

Umm...I was actually responding to durvasa and completely agreeing with you. I absolutely think it would be a demotion and agreed with your other points about Lin and Howard too...

 

If this is addressed to me, I explained what I mean by the word demotion -- one is forced to take a less important role on the team. You continue to use the word in a different sense -- one is forced to take a role that is popularly perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a less important role. By that definition, I accept that it is a "demotion" (with quotes). But I'm not going to pretend that there isn't an important distinction to be made between asking a player to take a role that is in actuality less important, versus asking a player to take a role that is no less important (and may be more important) but is considered less sexy by the general public. You, perhaps inadvertently, conflate these two notions by just calling it a "demotion" and leaving it at that.

 

Same here. I never said I wanted Harden as 6th man. That's just stupid. I've just been saying its still a demotion when you go from a regular starter to 6th man.

I want the best players on the floor at all times in the way that maximizes scoring and defense. It might just be that means Lin is the 6th man. But it might be the opposite too. We'll have to play it out and see. But I think it would be nice to give Lin a chance to prove that he can really fit with the new team. I agree with BBAB that he makes the ideal pick and roll partner with Howard. Look what he did with Tyson Chandler.

 

Agreed, Lin should come off the bench but also play 32+ minutes to get some PT with Howard, this is how I see the rotations going:

1Q:
position // player // minutes
C - D12 - 8 // Asik - 4
SG - Beard - 12
SF - Parsons - 10 // Casspi - 2
PG - Bev - 7 // Lin - 5
PF - Tjones - 8 // Dmo - 4

2Q:
C - Asik - 7 // D12 - 5
SG - Garcia - 7 // Harden - 5
SF - Casspi - 5 // Parsons - 7
PG - Lin - 8 // Bev - 4
PF - Dmo - 8 // Tjones - 4

so rotation would look something like

Howard (32-34 minutes)
Harden (36+ minutes)
Parsons (32-34 minutes)
Lin (28-30 minutes)
Bev (22-24 minutes)
Asik (22-24 minutes)
Tjones (18-20 minutes)
Dmo (18-20 minutes)
Garcia (10-12 minutes)
Casspi (13-15 minutes)

 

Understand you better now. But BBAB's definition is the one most people use...

 

I understand this. As I wrote earlier, one can talk about demotion in terms of perception versus demotion in terms of actually being given a less important role. Obviously, you're using the term to refer to perception of a player's status. I'm just making the distinction, because there are two different ways to look at it.

 

This whole debate is worthless since Lin is the starter in regular season. But I guess people been starved of basketball for so long that they want something to talk about.

Starting Line Up
Lin
Harden
Parsons
Jones
Howard

Bench
Beverley
Garcia
Casspi
D-Mo
Asik

3rd Stringers
Smith
Brewer
Brooks

 

And its the definition I think is less useful, because the more people latch onto the perception of a player being "demoted" (without regard to how their importance, in actuality, changes), the more they skew the perception away from reality.