Either all statues everywhere should be toppled or they should be prosecuted. A historical figure with what our society considers good morals does NOT exist. If they were not slave owners or racists they were sexists. They were child abusers, murderers, rapists , pedophiles etc etc. Some thing or the other that nowadays will bring label someone as a psycho and put behind bars while back then in their era was considered normal.
HO HO HO Batman, you are so surface today. Slavery, while important to the South's economy, was not the main thrust for the war. The victors write the history books, and of course slavery is thrown out to sway public opinion. But historians know the that this line of thought is just candy for the masses to consume. The Confederacy was not fighting because on a moral view on slavery. They were fighting because of their position on their economic sovereignty. Also, when you have to play the Nazi comparison card, your logic has run dry. You're just lunging for emotional-thinkers to agree with you at that point. GOOD DAY
"Economic sovereignty" ... i.e. the right to base their economy on slave labor. Vice President of the Confederacy in his Cornerstone Speech (1861), talking about the Confederacy: "Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
Fine them the cost of the fair market value of the materials used if the statue is un-salavagable. If private property then make it a civil case.
"George Washington Toppled At George Washington University": https://jonathanturley.org/2020/06/...e-washington-at-george-washington-university/
For those here that feel the need to protest Andrew Jackson. I will happily discard your $20 dollar bills for you. Just pm me with a reasonable time that works well for you and I'll meet at Treasures.
Wait what? So Lincoln and Grant statues should come down because of a quote? What kind of history are you aware of.
This makes no sense whatsoever concerning this issue. Nobody is saying the only way to have a statue is to have been perfect. you are way off base on this one.
I'm aware of, some, of the history of William T. Sherman, Abraham Lincoln and Sam Grant. They were racists and you can easily find extremely racist writings by them or historical accounts detailing their racism. Historical figures who were racists are having their statues vandalized/removed because of their racism. The question then becomes, where do we draw the line with regards to statue vandalism/removal? How can we have statues that celebrate these men when they were terrible racists? During his famous debates with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln explained to the crowd: “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Show me these extremely racist writings by Grant and Lincoln. Even so they did far more for blacks and slaves and the U.S, so that's very different than Confederate heroes. I know you want to boil this down to anybody who might have said anything racist to make a point but I am not playing that game with you.
During his famous debates with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln explained to the crowd: “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” Yes, it is different then confederate heros... we already had that discussion in this thread... but yes, let's go over it for you entirely again. Maybe you didn't notice, but it's not just Confederate statues that are being attacked now... it's all types of statues. So that's where things have shifted to. If you want to ignore that or not talk about it that's your right.
I knew that Lincoln said that but its not extremely racist considering the time and place IMO and, oh yeah he did sign the Emancipation Proclamation so that kind of balances it out I think. Yes there are ignorant people tearing down statues willy neely but that has nothing to do with you naming Grant and Lincoln. Sometimes good causes are hijacked by ignorant and stupid people does not mean the Confederate statues should stand just because.
This thread isn't confined to discussing the removal of Confederate statues. I'm happy to see them go. There is also a discussion to be had regarding other statues. I named Lincoln, Grant and Sherman because they are celebrated historical figures who were racists and that is true of many of the folks whose statues we have seen removed/vandalized. If, simply being a racist should result in the removal/vandalism of your statue, then it would be logically consistent to vandalize/remove their statues as well. Lincoln did head an administration which worked hard to end the institution of slavery. First he freed the slaves in the states in Rebellion with the Emancipation proclamation and then he worked hard to pass the 13th amendment ending slavery in the United States. Lincoln was also a racist. Both those things are true. Being an abolitionist =/= being a non-racist person. You can believe people should not be kept in bondage but that doesn't necessarily mean you believe they are your equal. Those are two separate things.
