All of this is true but why are people ignoring the simple and mathematical reality that an education costs more now than it did before? There is no getting around this fact, no bit of anecdotal evidence gets around this simple fact.
I understand that college costs more now, I don't disagree with you. My time is 2006-2010 which is when people have been accumulating debt. I understand that we want to blame others for it and I get that things may seem unfair in this country regarding the income inequality, but people from our generation and future generations need to evolve and find ways around getting huge amount of loans. Not everybody needs to go to college and I met several of those people in college. Hell, others take forever to graduate for whatever reason even though they arent working a job. I knew a guy that changed his mind three times, he went from Aerospace Engineer, to French major to some other major. It took him 6 years to graduate. Sometimes you have to be smart. I remember weighing the pros and cons of getting a master's degree. Ultimately, it made no difference in my salary and although I would have loved the extra education, taking out loans to get this degree would have been mostly wasted.
The flipside is what does Bernie's (or Warren's) plan do to actually address WHY it costs so much more? Government paying for it or reimbursing people for it is nice and easy - but if the price keeps going up at the current rates, that doesn't actually solve the problem.
You are still going by anecdotal evidence though. That guy that changed his major three times still would have had it easier if he did it that in the 80s just because of the low costs. We have tons of study, data, and research on this topic. Tons. If the idea of fixing the problem is that it's just going to go away, it isn't. Since you've graduated it has only gone up. Each year it rises. Here is the thing with being rich vs being poor, in general, when you are rich you have more room to make mistakes. You can change your major 15x and it still wouldn't matter...and here is the thing about people, we make mistakes. Some people get away with it because of their fortune and some people don't. The dream of America has always been that no matter who you are and where you come from, you can make it with just hard work. This is still true, but it is very much harder now than it was because of many factors, the rising price of education being one of them. While we can all agree that trade schools are good and that more people should look at them, that's not what high schools are teaching. HS Counselors tell students that you go to university...AND the trade school is the back up plan usually. Public school system, especially High school, is all about getting students ready for university, not life, but university, and that's where you prepare for life anyways, at least learn how to be independent...There's a lot of pressure on young people to go to university nowadays. I would never tell a 16 year old "Yeah man, just go to trade school. That'll do it." It's so defeating and imagine if someone tells your kid that like...yeah...that's the highest your kid can reach...we have to encourage young people to reach their potential, they can settle once its clear they can't. But back then, you could graduate with little to no debt at all because it simply wasn't as costly. That's a reality and when people bring it up it's just to say...why can't we do better? If you don't agree with Bernie's plan for it, that's fine, but I don't like to hear that it's just unfair and that's just the way it is. Yes, people make bad decisions, but I think that's not very relevant to it simply costing more and it rising. That's a problem that shouldn't just be waved away.
They have a plan beyond that, the economists can argue on whether it works or not, some people think they can do it and some people think they can't. There's an argument from others that doing this will give the economy a boost because a lot of poeple will finally move out and buy their own places. I'm merely arguing that it shouldn't be ignored as just unfair or "I did it and so can others." argument. But yeah, the bigger issue is that it keeps rising, faster than inflation.
Dude you are talking to me as if I were in my 50s and went to college during those times. I went from 2006-2010 and although not as expensive as now, it isn't as cheap as it was in the era you keep referring to. See and here is the problem, we are teaching the wrong things in high school and that's the problem we need to actually tackle. We need to give students the option. It shouldn't be college or bust. By making college free for everybody, which I don't believe even works that way in Europe, it's essentially opening up the gates for others to take their time to get through college, to make mistakes with no repercussions besides us as tax payers being given the bill. I am sorry man, maybe is because of the way I saw **** and I had to ****ing grow up. I personally didn't have the luxury of making mistakes and although I don't expect everybody to be like me, there are a ton of people that need to grow up. I wasn't born with rich parents, didn't go to a nice high school, didn't get the best tutoring and ****, but you know I ****ing adapted and made it. And I resonate that same message to all my cousins, nephew, nieces, friends etc. We don't have the luxury of ****ing around and I'm not mad about that. If you decide to go to some profit college or some lower tier law schools or some lower tier private universities, then that's your own mistake and like every human, there are consequences for those mistakes. I obviously don't agree with Bernie's plan and although I am willing to compromise (perhaps forgive peoples racked up interest) I am definitely not willing to just give them a clean slate. Too many of us busted our asses to do it the right way just to have others get a jail out of free card. Call me selfish, but there are more important policies I rather throw our money at (Medicare for all).
This is Bernie's website on his education plan: https://berniesanders.com/issues/free-college-cancel-debt/ Everything talks about paying for things. Where in there do you see anything focused on reducing cost drivers? This is the entire of list of "When in the White House, this is what we'll do" sections: Pass the College for All Act to provide at least $48 billion per year to eliminate tuition and fees at four-year public colleges and universities, tribal colleges, community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs. Everyone deserves the right to a good higher education if they choose to pursue it, no matter their income. Cancel the entire $1.6 trillion in outstanding student debt for the 45 million borrowers who are weighed down by the crushing burden of student debt. This will save around $3,000 a year for the average student loan borrower. Provide Pell Grants to low-income students to cover the non-tuition and fee costs of school, including: housing, books, supplies, transportation, and other costs of living. Require participating states and tribes to cover the full cost of obtaining a degree for low-income students (normally those with a family income of less than $25,000) by covering any gap that may still exist after we eliminate tuition, fees, and grants. Place a cap on student loan interest rates going forward. The federal government shouldn’t make billions of dollars in profit off of student loans while students are drowning in debt. We should invest in young Americans – not leverage their futures. Today, the average interest rate on undergraduate student loans is more than 5 percent. Under this proposal, we will cap student loan interest rates at 1.88 percent. In addition to eliminating tuition and fees, we will match any additional spending from states and tribes which reduces the cost of attending school at a dollar for dollar rate. This funding goes beyond closing the cost gap – participating states and tribes could use this money to hire additional faculty, ensure professors get professional development opportunities, and increase students’ access to educational opportunities. Triple funding for the Work-Study Program. By tripling funding for this program, we can build valuable career experiences for students that will help them after they graduate.Today, this program provides about $1,760 per year to some 700,000 students. When we are in the White House, we will expand the program to reach at least 2.1 million students – a 1.4 million student increase. And we will ensure that funding targets schools that have large low-income student enrollment. Provide $1.3 billion to private, nonprofit HBCUs and MSIs per year to eliminate or significantly reduce tuition and fees. This funding would support some 200 schools which serve at least 35 percent low-income students. Double funding for the TRIO Programs and increases funding for the GEAR UP Program so more low-income students, students with disabilities, and first-generation students can attend and graduate college with a degree. By increasing our investment in these programs, we will reach 1.5 million students through TRIO programs and more than 100,000 additional students through GEAR UP than the program reaches today.
I am saying that your argument here is anecdotal and it does not apply to everyone or most everyone or etc etc unless you can show, for example, that education is higher because X amount of students in this decade or changing majors more often than X amount of previous students from another decade. You made a good decision, but that decision only applies to you. No one else, this is the issue of anecdotal evidence. Some people actually benefit from changing majors you know? They realize they were on the wrong path and decide to choose another, there is a thing called the Sunk Cost Fallacy, pretty popular term now, but that applies to this that basically says it's better to give something up rather than keep on doing it because you've already too far gone down that road. Your anecdote implies that everyone...or most... should choose one major and stick with it even if they've learned they hate it or likely won't be good at the thing they are committing themselves too, etc etc...but that's not true of everyone. It's not like people of the 80s didn't ever change majors...they did, it's not like previous generations didn't make similar mistakes, that everyone was just so completely driven and hard working than everyone in this generation currently. That's just some lame talking point that has no data backing it and ignores the realities of the current day economy. You mentioned how studying abroad was like some mistake and how you see people do it and can't have sympathy for it. My cousin studied abroad, know why? It was cheaper for him to do so. It wasn't a mistake, my anecdotal evidence therefore cancels out yours. You see where I'm getting at? Your story is your own, it doesn't apply to everyone else. Sometimes people are forced into the mistakes they make because of their circumstances. Maybe university is their only way out of a dangerous area, they can't sit around at home and go to a cheaper community college or trade school because it's better for them to get out of that area. What I'm saying ultimately though is the numbers and data just show it costs more, therefore it stands to reason that it is likely harder for people now than it used to be.
As you point out, Bernie wants to revolutionize the entire thing. He wants to get rid of the costs for public colleges completely. I mean theoretically that would reduce prices...of course that might be a pie in the sky goal though.
LOL what, did you not seethe article I linked, his whole damn campaign has been like this. He's been shown ATTACKING his voters asking questions, his campaign has not been a good one. Its been pretty damn terrible. Like very bad, they arent voting for Biden cause they like him for the last time.
Your anecdotal reality believes everyone should be engineers and if not they should be electricians or plumbers. That is why your rhetoric just completely falls apart. There are limited slots for these positions and if everyone attempts to obtain these career, the market for these careers will be diluted. Society still needs to run and society is much more than engineers and technical trades. You do know that our founders believed in education not just because of jobs. There is reason why they harped "an educated society is a free society". I studied engineering also. I too was at that point when I was a freshman engineering student where I bragged about "useless majors". Get over it. Social science majors provide a great service to this country. Not many Americans outside a classroom environment read really dry dense literature and then proceed to write 20 page analytical papers organizing their thoughts in a nuanced manner for 4 years. That practice exercise the brain to think critically and be more introspective. Quite frankly ALL AMERICANS could benefit from obtaining that type of education including you as you would learn that anecdotes really aren't worthwhile in discussing systemic issues. Americans shouldn't be in massive debt to pursue bettering themselves through education.
Biden is quite hilarious when a voter asks him a difficult question. He does that aggressive finger push thing where he pushes you with his finger on your chest. It's so damn weird.
Another point that I need to address to all people who make an argument on one end about cost of loan debt forgiveness and then advocate for high schools teaching more useful skills such as technical skills is that those technical skills require significantly more amounts of money than your tradional math or English classroom. For example, many older people you here b**** about "there is no more machine shop". Those very same people also think that throwing money at education won't solve problems. But machine shop requires things such as lathes and mills. And today, if you want kids to learn useful skills, you need to buy equipment such as CNC lathes and mills which are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive because that is where industry is going. That's just a small example but it requires SIGNIFICANT amounts of money to properly fund teaching kids technical skills. The cheapest CNC lathe machine I could find was 40 thousand dollars. That's ONE unit.
I like him and I've always liked him. Ask everyone who voted for him on Super Tuesday and I'm sure there's a healthy mix of those who like him along with anti-Bernie voters. He has made mistakes, other candidates like Pete ran much smoother campaigns. Biden has done "weird" things and will continue to do them. He's also about to sweep the March 10 primaries and will soundly defeat Trump in November. It is what it is lol.
Hey I really do hope Biden decisively beats Trump. But my confidence isn't as high as yours currently. We are completely relying on the fact that people hate Trump enough to get enough turnout in the general. It's risky.
You keep saying this but there is pretty strong evidence that people like Biden. You just reject it. With no money, no ads and mediocre at best media coverage, Biden has cleared the field because people like him.
