Venezuela Protests

If there is one thing we know, it's that we don't know **** about who is behind anyone on either side.
Paid agitators and true Patriots look just alike in a world where propaganda rules information.

 

That intersection has become famous for all sorts of demonstrations in recent years. Syrians, and others.

Agreed, Maduro is not Chavez. It would have been interesting to see how Chavez would have handled the something like 3/4 fall in oil prices plus continual collusion between the previous oligarchs and the US.

Maduro might be the last leader of Chavismo, but it will be hard for the traditional oligarchs with support from the small middle class completely put down the previously excluded millions who have had a taste of education, healthcare and political power unless by ruthless dictatorial power, which all too sadly the US tolerates willing to insure oil. See Saudi Arabia and Iraq prior to Sadam getting a bit uppity. We also see the US support for the coup in Chile and the dictator Pinochet who was able to suppress advances for a generation.

 

You are just mistaken. Try to go beyond the NYT if you can.

Also, if possible, try to not just focus on spinning or quibbling over a word or two of my statement which you like to do when trying to dispute statements beyond Clinton-Obama moderation. Interesting that you accept their positions uncritically and without such quibbling or nit-picking.

 

It's pretty hard to tell what's going on right now. My gut says if we don't see hundreds of thousands in the street today, Guaido is toast and Maduro will be cemented as dictator. And it doesn't look likely that people will turn out en masse. But I don't know anything.

I can understand your aversion to the pre-Chavez government and to US intervention in Latin American politics, which has a very ugly history. I also think you can never go back anyway. No post-Maduro government can look like the pre-Chavez government. And US interventions won't be like the ones of the Cold War. Not that they'll be good now, just that they'll be different. I don't think it's all that helpful to look at pre-1991 events as indicators of what to expect in the future. In this situation, I don't know Guaido's game, I don't know Bolton's game, and I don't know Maduro's game, but it is apparent that the 2018 elections were not free and fair and that Venezuela's economy is absolutely falling apart. The path they're on is untenable. The US is currently making their economic problem worse, but running fraudulent elections and setting yourself up as a dictator isn't the right answer either. I'd rather we butted out, but I can still see Maduro isn't good for them.

 

I've quoted, numerous times, directly from the report for you. You're welcome to go back and find those posts if you'd like to actually learn the reality of the Carter Report. Of course, we all know you'd rather not so you can't just repeat your talking points endlessly.

 

It is apparent that the Venezuela economy has been sabotaged by US policy.
https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/venezuela/

 

lol funny thing you don't think you have talking points-- just facts. You read the same talking points from 10 mainstream sources all telling you essentially the same thing about Venezuela so it must be factual. I imagine with the same fact finding you sure initially supported Bush on Iraq and have supported the Afghanistan forever war probably still or up until very recently.

I am not willing to do much work to dispute your assertion about the Carter Center. The Carter Center found the elections to have been won fairly by the Chavistas up until Maduro's first election. At least he believe that first Maduro election over your guys and sources. See Carter essentially trusting the Chavistas over the opposition that always shouted "dictator" that you saw repeatedly in your limited range of info https://www.commentarymagazine.com/...gives-seal-of-approval-to-venezuela-election/

I must admit that after years of lying by the NYT and others and calling the freely elected Chavez a dictator for years I assumed that it was the same ol same ol, and did not keep up as much, but recent study has convinced me that Maduro's last election had quite a bit of fraud and he has become more and more undemocratic and corrupt since winning first in 2013. Sources calling Chavez a dictator from day one to the end do not have the credibility for me that they apparently do for you.

 

Obviously. I currently do business in Colombia and have tried to do business in Venezuela and its literally impossible to get any money into the country. Nobody on the streets there is Pro america and we have no business in fighting in another proxy war between USA/RUSSIA/CHINA.

 

Excerpts from interesting article by Colonel Wilkinson, Republican and ex Chief of Staff for Colin Powell

https://original.antiwar.com/Lawren...-the-tragedy-of-the-united-states-of-america/

+++++
I know the Venezuelan military; I’ve trained some of them. They are not your usual "I want to shower after meeting them" crowd, as I would describe for instance the Honduran military. Instead, they are reasonably professional, reasonably aware of Venezuela’s historical commitment to democracy, and reasonably competent at their day jobs. They are proud of the fact that they are not Panama, i.e., a country into which the U.S. can send paratroopers overnight, kill several thousands, grab a narco-trafficker, and leave.

The majority of them, if the US military arrives in Venezuela, will take to the hills – very formidable hills, with jungle-like backdrops – and they will harass, kill, take prisoner from time to time, and generally hold out forever or until the "gringos" leave. We might remember how the North Vietnamese and the Taliban accomplished this; well, so will the Venezuelans.

 

The Glynch Theme Song



Once I used to join in
Every boy and girl was my friend
Now there's revolution, but they don't know
What they're fighting

Let us close our eyes
Outside their lives go on much faster
Oh, we won't give in
We'll keep living in the past

 

this seems like some sort of violation...

also, interesting word choice by the post to call this an occupation of the embassy (underlined) when the next paragraph says the group was invited in by the government (also underlined).

more at the link

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...828f5389013_story.html?utm_term=.e9ee2bd65bf3

 

If the US doesn't recognize the Maduro government, then the US doesn't think the embassy represents the Maduro government, and the Maduro government cannot legitimately invite people there.

 

The same place you left your integrity Lindsey.

 

Please don't get involved in a Latin American putsch... I don't get the war hawks.

 

I was about to respond i kind. What is in for these guys? You would think that with debacles like the wmd caper leading to ISIS and even history proving that the wars in Vietnam were not necessary.

 

certainly seems like a violation of international law. is the leader of a country based on the what population of that country says or do international powers get to appoint leaders?

seems like if it's good enough for venezuela then 50 countries could just get together and recognize a different US president....

more at the link

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...673edf2d127_story.html?utm_term=.b4e6688b2c75

 

They can. And then what? How does that play out for them in your mind?

 

You think the two decade long "war on terror" was a debacle for defense contractors? Because that is what matters to individuals like Lindsey Graham.

 

lol whatever that means