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[NR] The ‘Burn It Down!’ Democrats: The Electoral College and Opposition to the Constitutional Order

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    More reasons why the Democratic Party is likely to continue to lose older, more conservative Democrats.

    The ‘Burn It Down!’ Democrats
    Unmediated mass democracy would lead to the serfdom of minority groups and the smallest, poorest states.
    By KEVIN D. WILLIAMSON
    March 21, 2019 6:30 AM

    The Senate. The Electoral College. The First Amendment. The Second Amendment. The Supreme Court. Is there a part of our constitutional order that the Democrats have not pledged to destroy?

    There are some Democrats out there in the sticks — a lot of them, in fact — who simply don’t understand the constitutional order. They believe that the United States is a democracy, John Adams et al. be damned, and, in fact, they often are confused by the frankly anti-democratic features of the American order, because they have been taught (theirs is a pseudo-education consisting of buzzwords rather than an actual education) that “democratic” means “good” and “undemocratic” means “bad.”

    But the Democrats in Washington are a different story. Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris went to law school. They understand the American constitutional order just fine.

    And they hate it.

    The American order is complex — it is much more sophisticated than “democracy,” which assumes that nothing stands between the individual and the national state except aggregation, that might (defined as 50 percent + 1) makes right. The American order is based on the idea that the United States consists of many different kinds of people in many different kinds of communities, and that each of these has interests that are legitimate even when they conflict with the equally legitimate interests of other communities. The densely populous urban mode of life is not the only mode of life, and the people of the urban areas are not entitled by their greater numbers to dominate their fellow citizens in the less populous rural areas.

    The basic units of the United States are, as the name suggests, the several states. The states created the federal government, not the other way around. The states are not administrative subdivisions of the federal government, which is their instrument, not their master. In this, the United States is fundamentally different from countries such as the United Kingdom and Japan, which have unitary national governments under which provincial distinctions are largely irrelevant.

    In our system, the states matter. Under the Democrats’ vision, some states matter: California, Texas, Florida, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Ohio, which, without the institutions of federalism, have among them the numbers and the power to effectively dominate the rest of the country.

    At the time of the Founding, the people of the smaller states did not desire to enter into a union in which they and their interests would be dominated by the larger ones. The people of the smaller states still do not wish to be politically dominated by the larger one. For that reason, the interests of the states as such — not mere aggregates of voters — are taken into consideration. The Senate, as originally organized, existed to preserve the interests of the states as such against the opportunism and predation of the more populous House of Representatives — and against the ambitions of the executive, too. Turning the Senate into an inflated version of the House was one of the progressives’ first great victories against the Constitution of the United States and an important step toward the sort of mass democracy that our constitutional order is explicitly designed to prevent.

    But the states have other protections as well, one of which is the Electoral College, which helps to ensure that the president — the Founders were right to fear presidential ambition — is not a mere tribune of the plebs, a rider upon “the beast with many heads” empowered by the mob at his back to abuse and dominate members of minority groups — smaller states, religious minorities, political minorities, etc.

    The rights of minorities are further protected — from democracy — by the Constitution’s limitations on the power of the federal government and specifically by the Bill of Rights, which places some considerations above democracy: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to security in one’s home and papers, etc. One of the main constitutional functions of the Supreme Court is to see to it that the federal government does not violate the Bill of Rights, even when We the People demand that it does — especially then, actually: Rights that enjoy wide popular support require very little constitutional protection. It is the unpopular rights that require protection.

    Of course there were blemishes and oversights. Even the enlightened minds of the 18th century were hostages of their time, and the interests of African Americans and women were not taken into consideration. Those defects were corrected, partly by the shedding of blood but to a great extent by constitutional amendments that abolished slavery, enfranchised women, and brought the American people at large more fully into the constitutional system. The preamble to the Constitution describes a “more perfect union,” which is not the same thing as a perfect union. The genius of leaders such as Susan B. Anthony and the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. was that their calls to radical change ran against the grain of American society at their time but were perfectly in tune with the American idea and the principles of the American order.

    The Democrats’ calls to radical change in 2019 are precisely the opposite: They are very much in keeping with the transient passions of the time but fundamentally opposed to the American constitutional order.

    The Electoral College ensures that the citizens in the less popular states are not reduced to serfdom by the greater numbers (and greater wealth) of the people in the more populous states. This balancing of minority rights with democratic processes is a fundamental part of the American order (properly understood, the value of plebiscitary democracy is not substantive — majorities are at least as likely to be wicked and oppressive as virtuous and just — but purely procedural), and the Electoral College is the instrument by which that principle is applied to the election of presidents. The Democrats desire to abolish the Electoral College for purely self-interested reasons of partisanship: They think that there would be more Democratic presidents under unmediated mass democracy.

    The First Amendment ensures that all Americans have the right to engage in political speech. Democrats wish to put political speech under heavy regulation, so that the people holding political power set the rules under which they may be criticized and debated. The Democrats have attempted to gut the First Amendment under the guise of “campaign finance” regulation, as though the right of free speech could be separated from the means of speech. It is worth bearing in mind that the Democrats’ latest attack on the First Amendment was occasioned by the desire of a political activist group to show a film critical of Hillary Rodham Clinton in the run-up to a presidential election — a film whose circulation the Democrats sought to prohibit as a “campaign finance” matter.

    The Supreme Court stepped in to stop that, finding that the First Amendment means what it says. And now the Democrats propose to corrupt the Supreme Court, expanding the number of justices from nine to whatever number it takes for a future Democratic president to create a majority of Democratic partisans on the Court. They are counting on the same court-packing scheme to give them the power to effectively repeal the Second Amendment without having to bother to propose and ratify a constitutional amendment — a political fight that the Democrats would surely lose.


    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/03/democrat-opposition-constitutional-order-electoral-college/
     
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    conclusion:

    What the Democrats are proposing — abolishing the constitutional protections afforded to smaller states and political minorities, perverting the Supreme Court, gutting the Bill of Rights — amounts in sum to a revolution, replacing our government with a government of a very different character and structure.

    They are doing this mainly because the Constitution prevents them from achieving their immediate short-term political goals. And we should be clear about what those immediate political goals actually are: muzzling their political opponents and those with unpopular political views, disarming the citizenry, stripping minority groups of political power, and rigging the political system in favor of their own constituents. They would, if given the power, burn down the American constitutional order and replace it with something closer to ordinary mob rule, plain and unapologetic ochlocracy. The United States is not drifting into fascism or socialism — it is drifting into anarchy.

    That’s quite a fit to throw over Mrs. Clinton being denied her tiara.

    The Republican party likes to position itself as the defender of the Constitution. But with a few exceptions (Senator Ben Sasse prominent among them), Republicans in elected office demonstrate very little appreciation for the actual stakes on the political table. For the moment, they are more concerned with defending the Trump administration — which, whatever you think of it, is a short-term concern — than with defending something that is far more important, far more precious, and, in all likelihood, impossible to replace. If 2016 taught us anything, it is that the Jeffersons and Madisons of this generation apparently are otherwise occupied, that our political leadership is for the time diminished, and that the institutions the Democrats propose to incinerate could not be rebuilt by contemporary Americans any more than modern Iraqis could successfully revive the Code of Hammurabi.​
     
  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    not exactly rolling back the Constitutional order, but related in that it's Democratic candidates calling for court-packing:

    Dangers of Growing Support for Court-Packing
    There is growing support for packing the Supreme Court among liberal Democrats, including some presidential candidates. It's a terrible idea that would severely damage the institution of judicial review, if ever implemented. Thoughtful liberals would do well to reject it.

    Ilya Somin|
    Mar. 20, 2019 10:53 pm

    https://reason.com/volokh/2019/03/20/dangers-of-growing-support-for-court-pac
     
  4. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Oh no, I hope we haven't lost our model moderate Democrat Os to the dark side.
     
  5. dmoneybangbang

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    You’d have to be a partisan hack or ignorant to suggest the same strategy isn’t currently being used by the GOP to pack the courts...
     
  6. dmoneybangbang

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    Last time I checked the Constituon provided ways to amend it.....

    It seems a particular “moderate democrat” isn’t aware of this or many conservatives for that matter....

    Perhaps conservatives need to explain why the constitution doesn’t need to be updated every 250 years or so.....

    The constitution is living document, not the Bible. Maybe conservatives are confused because of this?
     
  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    The article ascribes too much of the drive for change to Clinton losing the 2016 election. Many of these calls for reform go much further back. By ascribing it all to the Clinton loss, he's also able to brush aside much of the Republicans' complicity in much of this stuff. He's also unnecessarily apocalyptic about the stakes here, saying even that we'll descend into anarchy, which is dumb. Also, I don't get the rationale that the Electoral College protects minority voices. It does not. It only protects state voices. Anyway, I mostly agree with him on the beauties of the American system, but I think his allergic reaction to reform and his politicization of the issue is weak.
     
    RayRay10 likes this.
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    You know that this is only an issue since the Senate Repubs did not perform their constitutional duty of advise and consent on Obama's USSC nominee Merrick Garland. Matter of fact, the new Senate precedent is that the POTUS can not get a USSC vote unless his party controls the Senate
     
    JuanValdez likes this.
  9. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    What? When was BtG ever a moderate Democrat?
     
  10. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Does the older conservative democratic migration have a fancy name/hashtag and a set of internet research agency Facebook content yet?

    EColiDems or Greyxodus?
     
  11. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    We don't need to get rid of the EC, but it does need to be adjusted so every vote counts equally.....

    The Senate is where all states have the same rights, we don't need the national election to do the same.

    DD
     
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  12. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Pendulum shifts
     
  13. Nook

    Nook Member

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    The Electoral College isn't going anywhere.

    The First Amendment isn't going anywhere either.

    There will not be court packing, and anyone that supports it is short sighted.

    The Second Amendment isn't going anywhere, the debate is over what exactly the Amendment means and what restrictions apply.

    Ever since 9-11 we have seen a continual and progressive abuse by the executive office.

    I am against any opportune, short sighted changes/abuses of the Constitution. Accordingly the call to make some of the changes discussed are foolish. I would point out, contrary to what the writer insinuates, this isn't a phenomena that is limited to Democrats. The man occupying the Oval Office has made numerous assertions about his power and has made efforts to do things that go beyond his Constitutional authority.

    Pandora's Box is opened and someone needs to close it, but that isn't likely in the current fire brand environment we are living in.
     
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  14. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    I posted this in the other thread where EC topic was introduced...

    Instead of simply protecting the political say of people that live in rural areas or away from large urban areas, instead the electoral college gives too much power to those. For example, California gets 55 electoral votes for 37.3 million people (2010 Census), or one electoral vote for approximately each 680,000 people. Wyoming receives 3 votes for its 568,000 people, or about one per 190,000. So the people in Wyoming almost three times the voting power than the people in California.

    So you are correct... doing away with the Electoral College isn't needed as much as a rebalancing of the electoral votes.
     
  15. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    The Electoral College is a tough problem. Well, really two.

    The first is the number of electors allocated to each state. By going this route, it focuses a presidential race on a few states instead of the country as a whole and you end up with a decent chance that the electoral votes will not match up with the popular vote. If the EVs and the popular vote do not agree, the president's legitimacy is rightly questioned and fires already stoked during an election become much bigger.

    If you want a popular vote, you probably need to think how one would ensure campaigns would be national and not just targeted towards large states like CA, TX, FL, and NY.

    The second is the electors themselves. Over the years, states have completely done away with their independence and tied them to party, but when the Founders designed the College, they were not expecting parties to be as strong as they are today (maybe their biggest failing after doing a good job of anticipating so much else). They were also expecting the college to be filled with reasonable and independent people who would recognize when popular sentiment voted an unworthy personality into the presidency. It was another check and balance, but it has been eviscerated by the courts and state legislatures.

    Here's Hamilton in Federalist #68, which has modern relevance beyond the Electoral College:

    So, if we have an Electoral College, let's have one like the Founders envisioned and not a rubber stamp of people tied to a party (easier said than done). If we carry on as is, it is a charade, serving no Constitutional or democratic purpose. Of course, it would also help if we fielded candidates who were not defined by "talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity."

    My solution, which has no merit and not much thought behind it, is to reestablish a robust Electoral College and award state electoral votes based on a percentage of the popular vote in that state instead of winner-take-all. That way, A Republican candidate would campaign in California or NY or Illinois to try and grab some EVs while a Democrat would do the same in Texas, TN, and Georgia. Furthermore, A Democrat might campaign in Idaho or Nebraska to try and steal 1 EV while the Republican might try the same in Maine or NH. This could be done without a Constitutional Amendment.
     
  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Wrong.

    Hewing to norms does not make sense when your enemy is committed to destroying those norms.

    In game theory, when people cheat the game, you have to punish them to deter further cheating.

    And frankly most of the rules are terrible to begin with. The EC is a bad idea on its own merits and of dubious historical provenance, for example. So, let's get rid of it.

    Your recipe is like "let's just at half a **** sandwich, until some [unspecified series of events] causes them to magically disappear!"

    **** that, and stop being so dumb and naive about the threat posed by the rise of autocrats. This is exactly how it happens. Salami tactics.
     
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  17. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Dems are flipping the game board...
     
  18. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Oh now you guys want to act like constitutionalist again? Ted Cruz is that you?

    ............

    Nothing wrong with talking about the Electoral College and having a debate about it. People on the right and the media love to hyperventilate about nothing. The most reasonable & easiest way to change the presidential election would be through the states. And you'd need pretty damn blue states to make these sort of changes.

    Our current Congress & White House cannot even get routine budgets past for F-ck's sake. You really think Congress & the White House would magically be able to call a constitutional assembly & amend the constitution in 2021??

    People are freaking naive man.

    However... Donald Trump did just give the future Democrats some real major power though in the executive branch with the National Emergency (assuming the Supreme Court rules in his favor). Just imagine how Ted Cruz & co. will be railing on FoxNews and shutting down the government to make a point when a Dem President invokes the National Emergency Act in order to reform gun laws after a major shooting.

    Thanks Trump!
     
  19. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    We've watched the best for the last 30 years.
     
    biff17 and DonnyMost like this.
  20. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    ?
     

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