I don't even understand what he was arguing.."only" dominated 6 years out of "how many years?" Is he actually putting down MJ for winning 6 rings...(3 more than LeBron currently has) in 30 less playoff appearances than LeBron currently has in the ECF right now? 3 more rings in the same amount of total regular season games played? LeBron James will tie Jordan's total games played in the 11th game of next season. That counts MJ's wizards years.....to put into even more eye opening perspective for him....LeBron James has 3 less rings in 131 more games than Chicago Bull Jordan. 131 less games. 3 more championships. Do you realize how crazy that is? But, he's using it as an argument against MJ in favor of LeBron?? Michael Jordan (930 games as a Bull) = 6 championships LeBron James (1061 career games) = 3 championships(1 of them even being in a short lockout season) LeBron = GOAT That's what he's saying right?
Lol. Wtf did I just read. If this is high level trolling, I applaud you. Also, everyone knows mj's first 'retirement' was a secret suspension for his gambling problem.
To address the thread main topic, I think that despite Lebron's supreme talent there have been legitimate questions about him, especially regarding quitting on Cleveland in 2010, and then playing like a role-player in the 2011 Finals. That said, last year, Lebron led the comeback from being down 1-3 in the Finals, something no team has ever done, against a 73 win Warriors team that to all appearances seemed to have "solved" basketball. If he follows that up by defending his title against the Western Conference All-Star team that is lead by the last two MVPs that are both under 30... he at the very least deserves the "coin flip" with Jordan as being the GOAT.
How can you use titles and then decide not to count Russell? Jordan was considered the GOAT after his 1st retirement, when he only had 3 titles.
No. He's greatest of this time. He is still in top 10 of all time Top three are Hakim, Bird, & Jordan in that order,
God, when are sports fans going to get over this end-all-be-all obsession with ring count? Guess Robert Horry is better than any of those guys, then. Also, please explain to me why the fact that he won a title during a lockout season is relevant. How exactly did that make it easier for him to win? (PS: Duncan won one during a lockout season, too... an even shorter lockout season)
B/c it's not a fair comparison. 8 team league with so many HOF teammates. No. Robert Horry isn't considered. Why is that always the guy that is mentioned when people don't like ring count as a major criteria to being the greatest? Of course if LeBron wins 7 rings in a span of 20 years and multiple superstar teammates, you won't mind using ring count to say he's the GOAT over MJ, right? Of course when LeBron passes up MJ in total points in way more games, that will be used to say he's better than MJ and I can just say so Karl Malone is also better than MJ right? Don't act like were just counting rings without any other criteria. Were talking about some of the greatest to ever do it as the leader of their team, not role players. Ring count + raw and advanced stats + skill + eye test are all things that are considered. "Robert Horry is better than MJ then right?" So ridiculous and illogical and only used by Kobe and LeBron fans as if MJ's stats don't back him up against guys with less rings than him. Lots of things go into these discussions including being the alpha dog of your ring count or a #2 option or a 1B option + other things like how good your teammates were. If you were to argue with me about Kareem being the GOAT, I would argue that despite his total career stats + 6 rings, you have to look at the fact that he played with 2 other players in the running for top 10 and that many argue for their place as GOAT. I'm of course talking about Magic and Oscar. The reverse works against Magic and Oscar as well. I'd also argue that Kareem was probably the best player of his 6 rings for maybe 2 of them, with 1 of them being won in a game 7 with a rookie Magic and Kareem not even playing. I'd argue his 2 FMVP hurts him with one of them at 37 years old arguably should have gone to 18,7,14 per game Magic Johnson. I know Duncan has a lockout championship. So what? No one outside of San Antonio argues for him being the GOAT. I make mention of it b/c it is a difference maker. There are tons of teams with older players that could have been champions if they played 20-40 less games. Of course it matters. Why do you think players today want to play less game? Who knows if Wade's knees hold up if they played the full 82 games + playoffs. It's the same reason I can't compare with Russell and Chamberlain days of an 8-11 team league. You need to have similar criteria. If next season, the NBA decides to do 50 game seasons and only 8 total playoff teams, then i can't compare them to other generations. Of course in the end I know it is meaningless. I know that all a player can do is dominate his competition and be the best of HIS era. But, you can't stop the argument from happening. It's already happening with LeBron fans wanting to say he's the GOAT. Expect many to have an argument against...you can't just say something like Robert Horry is better than MJ bc of his 7 rings when you don't like ring count as a major criteria. It's something I'm seeing more and more every year when LeBron fans want to just say "if you don't look at rings." No. You can't just throw away championships as the main man. It's the goal of every team sport. To be the champion and leader of championship teams. But, doesn't suit your argument so let's just forget about having more rings and being undefeated in the finals right? I accept my GOAT is different from an 18 year old's GOAT as well as a 70 year old's GOAT. This is the way of things. Just don't expect me to not make my case when that 18 year old or 70 year old tell me their guy is the greatest.
I put more weight on finals mpvs. If you're not the best player on the team I can't attribute that ring to you (Kobe's first 3 rings). Also, the fact that LBJ won a ring for a franchise that had never won one before and no championship pedigree is important too.
I'm not the one saying Horry is better... YOU'RE the one saying he's better by mentioning ring count (and ONLY ring count) as an argument against Lebron being the GOAT. (An argument that seemed to be trying to imply that it's ludicrous to even consider him at that level.) I'm only bringing up Horry as an example of how ludicrous that one-track logic is. Obviously I don't believe Horry is really in this discussion. And yes, ring count matters, which is why Lebron winning this year (or maybe next year) is important, but it is absolutely not the end-all-be-all. Hell, as just one example of how ludicrous it is, Lebron would already have four rings if not for Kyrie (and Love's) injuries in 2015. He'd be working on #5 right now... There's a lot more that goes into winning rings than just how good you are as a player. Rings are team accomplishments, not individual ones. So using them as the most important (let alone as the only) criteria in individual comparisons is, plainly, stupid.
Im with you on FMVP. Bulls never had a championship before Jordan. Bucks never had one before Kareem(and past prime Oscar) Rockets never had one till Hakeem. San Antonio didn't have one till Duncan. Miami didn't have one till Wade. Detroit didn't one till Isiah. Portland...Walton. Don't really put much stock into a team never having won one before. Most NBA teams don't have a championship and all bound to have a first.
When did i ever say ring count is the only thing MJ has over LeBron? MJ has the better advanced stats. More accolades. LeBron only has more rebounds and assists than MJ...well so did Magic and Bird. After considering all that, yes 6 rings in the same amount of time LeBron has already played is pretty, pretty big argument. Not one to be countered with "robert horry has more!"
Jordan higher career PER in reg season and playoffs Jordan better OWS/DWS/WS in reg season in same amount of time (lebron has played 30 more playoff games so WS can be skewed, but through 179, MJ had the higher WS and OWS and the DWS was exactly the same for both players). WS/48 reg season and playoff also in favor of MJ. Jordan lower turnover% reg season and playoffs Jordan better stl% reg season and playoffs Jordan lower career reg and playoff FT rate and people say MJ lived at the foul line if he was touched. LeBron has a slight edge in TS% and slightly lower USG% and virtually same blk% and surprisingly only slghtly better TRB% given lebrons size and position LeBron clearly higher ast% and the better VORP So like i said...the only real true advantage LeBron has in anything in comparison to MJ is passing and i guess rebounds, but so did Magic and Bird. Consider also that MJ played the majority of his career in the triangle offense. Let them say LeBron is a better passer than Jordan. You can say the same for Bird and Magic and many other greats. In the end, LeBron will have career totals over a span of probably double the amount of games MJ played as his primary argument. Essentially the Kareem argument. Longevity. So when all that is put together and you add the 10 scoring titles, 1 more MVP, 3 more rings, 3 more FMVP, DPOTY, 3 more All D teams, double the amount of 50+ win playoff opponents beaten ALL in the same time frame LeBron has played in the regular season and ALL in 30 less playoff games(and counting). Yeah. Then you add little things like eye test for skill and footwork, then you add little statistical facts like 250+ steals and 125+ blocks(a feat the much larger LeBron has not come close to, MJ did it 2x) all while averaging 37ppg and 35ppg....i mean....yeah. Then you look at the fact that LeBron's career averages are only going to keep dropping..hell, his career rpg and apg might not even be much more than MJ's by the time he retires and his ppg and spg and bpg will all keep dropping even further behind MJ's. I've already said in this very thread that LeBron is on his way to being #2 and locking it up for good just as MJ locked up #1 IMO. He very well might already be #2 even with 2 less rings than Magic, but advanced stats and D heavily favoring LeBron over Magic. Some would have Kareem ahead, but i don't buy it. Hakeem is better than Kareem.
Personally I don't use a single GOAT argument. I prefer to define by GOAT of his era. Bill Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Kobe , Duncan all greats in my eyes. If sports was definitive into neat little boxes and easy arguments, then we wouldn't spend as many a days arguing about who is better/worse/ etc.
Magic and Bird are the same Era.... same with Kobe-Duncan. Add Hakeem and Wilt if you're choosing duos
Those were just some examples for me. To be exact. These will be the interesting points. [Wilt/Russell] [Bird/Magic] [Jordan/Hakeem] [Kobe/Duncan] Lebron and Kareem seem to fall between the major eras or after them to the present time.
