The effects of waiving players - Lebron got his wish

Yes, this is a strong point that any rules change will face by both the Union and the Owners. Owners want buyouts. Players accept them for freedom. Eliminating the freedom to play in the playoffs will effectively hurt the Owners by players then being more unlikely to accept the buyout, so count on many of them being resistant to change....on both sides of the aisle.

I suggested above that buyouts would still preserve playoff eligibility with the restriction that teams can't use the minimum exception without forfeiting the player's eligibility, and teams above the Tax line can't use *any* exception except the Injury replacement exception. Players can still accept a buyout and sign for minimum, but forfeit eligibility....like "Sorry, you're the one who accepted the buyout and can't find a team with cap room or another exception to use other than minimum. And besides, you're still getting paid at least minimum salary via the buyout."

A future 2nd rounder wont stop a team like CLE who is insanely above the Tax Line already. Going broke for the Ring will trump everything; hell, they'd probably pay even their bad 1st rounder for Bogut. You would have to make it impossible to get if you are over the Tax Line. It's the only way, imo. Hence, can't use exceptions except injury replacement.

Sounds like we are similar in thought, with the only difference that you're trying to appease an angry player for not being able to go anywhere, so you're trying to be creative with compensation. I don't see compensation involving paying a pick stopping anyone. And who are you paying the pick to? You can't just remove it from the draft....the Players Union would say "wtf".

All this complexity seems to be just to appease a player to have full rights to sign with anyone. Having a team pay significant monetary penalties is weird, and you are back to the player getting angry if the team refuses to do it -- which seems to be what you were trying to solve.

Besides, Bogut wouldn't be angry. Bogut still would have accepted the buyout and signed with Houston with caproom. No problem...everyone is happy. Who is the mythical angry player you are trying to appease in a way that allows CLE to still get the buyout player if they pay huge penalties.

The player just has to accept his business fate and not do the buyout if he feels he won't land where he wants and is going to get angry about it. And the owner needs to accept their business fate than they traded for or signed a prima dona who won't accept a buyout unless he gets everything he wants.

If the player gets angry for a simple "no use of exceptions" rule, he needs to get over it. Especially Bogut, he freaking chose Dallas. He could have signed in the Summer with CLE for the minimum to begin with.

 

How is forfeiting a 2nd rounder going to stop CLE from doing what they just did. That's no disincentive at all. It's like you didn't even change the rule.

Eliminating use of exceptions for Tax payers is simpler and would work. Below Tax line teams can use any exception, except the minimum exception. The restrictions are just for playoff eligibility, so player can still sign anywhere, but might forfeit the playoffs.

 

If you would read the whole thing, it costs you your next available future 2nd, and you can only pay out from either the upcoming draft or the following one and they have to be your own. Meaning in this particular year, Cleveland wouldn't have been able to sign either guy because they already owe those picks. But assuming they did, those picks would then be gone and next year they'd be unable to sign anyone in these circumstances PLUS they'd be without the picks to use in other deals.

The financial penalties would also be burdensome. One of the reasons Lebron was complaining was because Cleveland didn't want to use their TPEs to bring in high salaried players because of the tax implications.

The penalties are pretty stiff really. Not stiff enough that a team with title hopes wouldn't still do it, but you literally couldn't do it every year.

 

Nothing wrong with the current system.

Spoiler

What, we're gonna start telling where free agents can & cannot go? "Can't go to Cleveland or Golden State because they're too good but you can sign with the 27 other NBA teams."

Yeah, Cavs are over the cap. And? They're also gonna be paying a luxury tax. Gonna implement the same rules in the offseason? Teams over the cap can't sign veteran minimum players?

And this.

For two guys who led the Mavs to mediocrity (or less)? For two guys who lost their job to Yogi Ferrell & another who couldn't stay healthy & saw Dirk & Salah Mejiri take his job? Mehhhh...

Maybe fix? the Bogut loophole and/or extend the return period? 2 years instead of one?

Spoiler

February/March buyouts
2016-17
Warriors waived Anderson Varejao
Heat waived Derrick Williams - signed by Cleveland
Hornets waived Chris Andersen
Kings waived Matt Barnes - signed by Golden State
Sixers waived Chasson Randle - signed by New York
Nets waived Marcus Thornton & Luis Scola
Mavs waived Deron Williams - signed by Cleveland
Pelicans waived Terrence Jones - signed by Milwaukee
Suns waived Jared Sullinger & Mike Scott
Rockets waived Marcelo Huertas
Pelicans waived Omri Casspi
Hawks waived Lamar Patterson
Knicks waived Brandon Jennings - signed by Washington
Lakers waived Jose Calderon - signed by Golden State & Atlanta
Sixers waived Andrew Bogut - signed by Cleveland
Wizards waived Danuel House
Cavs waived Jordan McRae

2015-16
Magic waived Jared Cunningham - signed by Milwaukee
Sixers waived JaKarr Sampson - signed by Denver
Blazers waived Anderson Varejao - signed by Golden State
Blazers waived Tim Frazier - signed by New Orleans
Pelicans waived Jarnell Stokes
Nuggets waived J.J. Hickson - signed by Washington
Nuggets waived Steve Novak - signed by Milwaukee
Celtics waived David Lee - signed by Dallas
Nets waived Andrea Bargnani
Bucks waived Chris Copeland - signed by Orlando
Warriors waived Jason Thompson - signed by Toronto
Mavs waived John Jenkins - signed by Phoenix
Suns waived DeJuan Blair
Magic waived Chris Copeland
Wolves waived Andre Miller - signed by San Antonio
Nets waived Joe Johnson - signed by Miami
Rockets waived Marcus Thornton - signed by Washington
Suns waived Kris Humphries - signed by Atlanta
Heat waived Beno Udrih
Spurs waived Ray McCallum - signed by Memphis
Raptors waived Anthony Bennett
Rockets waived Ty Lawson - signed by Indiana
Wolves waived Kevin Martin - signed by San Antonio
Grizzlies waived James Ennis - signed by New Orleans
Suns waived Sonny Weems - signed by Philadelphia
Pacers waived Chase Budinger - signed by Phoenix
Sixers waived Christian Wood
Spurs waived Rasual Butler
Wizards waived Gary Neal
Grizzlies waived Mario Chalmers

2014-15
Hornets waived Jannero Pargo
Hornets waived Elliot Williams - signed by New Orleans
Knicks waived Amar'e Stoudemire - signed by Dallas
Mavs waived Ricky Ledo - signed by New York
Pelicans waived Toney Douglas
Pelicans waived Ish Smith - signed by Philadelphia
Bucks waived Kenyon Martin
Jazz waived Kendrick Perkins - signed by Cleveland
Bucks waived Larry Sanders
Sixers waived Malcolm Thomas
Sixers waived Andrei Kirilenko
Suns waived John Salmons
Nuggets waived Victor Claver
Nuggets waived Thomas Robinson - signed by Philadelphia
Pelicans waived Shawne Williams - signed by Detroit
Sixers waived Tim Frazier - signed by Portland
Sixers waived JaVale McGee
Pelicans waived Justin Hamilton - signed by Minnesota
Wolves waived Glenn Robinson III - signed by Philadelphia
Jazz waived Ian Clark - signed by Denver
Wizards waived Toure' Murry
Lakers waived Steve Nash

2013-14
Spurs waived Othyus Jeffers
Sixers waived Dewayne Dedmon - signed by Orlando
Pacers waived Orlando Johnson - signed by Sacramento
Sixers waived Earl Clark - signed by New York
Magic waived Glen Davis - signed by LA Clippers
Hawks waived Antawn Jamison
Rockets waived Ronnie Brewer
Hawks waived Jared Cunningham - signed by Sacramento
Kings waived Roger Mason
Knicks waived Metta World Peace
Knicks waived Beno Udrih - signed by Memphis
Sixers waived Danny Granger - signed by LA Clippers
Bucks waived Caron Butler - signed by Oklahoma City
Hawks waived Dexter Pittman
Kings waived Jimmer Fredette - signed by Chicago
Bobcats waived Ben Gordon
Suns waived Viacheslav Kravtsov
Cavs waived Arinze Onuaku
Heat waived DeAndre Liggins
Cavs waived Shane Edwards

2012-13
Wolves waived Lou Amundson - signed by Chicago
Blazers waived Ronnie Price
Suns waived Luke Zeller
Magic waived Hakim Warrick
Kings waived Aaron Brooks - signed by Houston
Cavs waived Josh Selby
Rockets waived Tyler Honeycutt
Hawks waived Jeremy Tyler
Mavs waived Dominique Jones
Jazz waived Raja Bell
(NO)Hornets waived Henry Sims
Clippers waived Trey Thompkins
Sixers waived Jeremy Pargo

2011-12
Nets waived Larry Owens
Magic waived Larry Hughes
Bucks waived Darington Hobson
Nuggets waived DeMarre Carroll - signed by Utah
Grizzlies waived Josh Davis
Warriors waived Earl Barron
Cavs waived Mychel Thompson
Rockets waived Jeff Adrien
Clippers waived Solomon Jones
Lakers waived Derrick Caracter
Heat waived Mickell Gladness - signed by Golden State
(NO)Hornets waived Carldell Johnson
(NO)Hornets waived DaJuan Summers
Spurs waived Malcolm Thomas
Wizards waived Hamady N'Diaye
Nets waived Keith Bogans
Knicks waived Renaldo Balkman
Blazers waived Armon Johnson - signed by New Jersey
Raptors waived Anthony Carter
Blazers waived Greg Oden
Blazers waived Chris Johnson - signed by New Orleans
Rockets waived Terrence Williams - signed by Sacramento
Warriors waived T.J. Ford
Cavs waived Jason Kapono
Nuggets waived Ronny Turiaf - signed by Miami
Rockets waived Derek Fisher - signed by Oklahoma City
Kings waived J.J. Hickson - signed by Portland
Sixers waived Andres Nocioni
Cavs waived Ryan Hollins - signed by Boston
Blazers waived Mehmet Okur
Bobcats waived Boris Diaw - signed by San Antonio
Mavs waived Sean Williams - signed by Boston
Celtics waived Chris Wilcox
Raptors waived Rasual Butler
Wizards waived Roger Mason
Celtics waived Jermaine O'Neal
Knicks waived Bill Walker

 

Honestly you can't fault the player for choosing where he wants to go. He negotiated a buyout and is a free agent. He should get the choice.

The ramifications needs to be on the team for bringing in a player. If you have salary cap space no penalty what so ever. If you have an injury exception or another type of exception to absorb a player, no penalty.

But if your having to release a minimum player to sign a new minimum player there should be ramifications. If your in the luxury it should be worse.

For instance. You are over the cap under the luxury tax it costs you the minim and double the salary he acquired with your team at the end of the season when the penalties come out. So it would cost this team the minimum of 500k plus another million at the end of year. Not really breaking their back and likely worth it to make a push.

But if your over the luxury tax and release to add a minimum maybe make the penalty times 4. So that would be the 500k plus 2millllion at the end of year in penalty tax.

For instance with Cleveland who added 2 vet minimums. That's an added 1m in salary also. That gets added onto their already steep luxury tax bill. On top they would have to pay another 4million in the hypothetical penalty.

Obviously I don't think this stops Cleveland from trying to get either player but maybe it makes them think about it. Maybe they decide to only add one player instead although I doubt it.

But it kind of makes it more balanced competitively while still allowing the free agent veteran to choose the team he desires as long as they are willing.

 

I did read the whole thing....didn't catch that added nuance of complexity. Man, that's complex.

Restrictions on use of exceptions is much simpler, and works EVERY year...not just once every two years like your method. I don't get why you're worried about some mythical angry player who didn't get to sign with the team he wanted, because they are above the Tax Line or below but spent all their exceptions or capspace....so you increase the complexity to account for some mythical spoiled brat player.

My method penalizes for current spending. Yours prevents something happening next year. The Tax Line team or the team who spent all their exceptions has already built their team for THIS title run year on that planned and executed spending. They are spent and locked in, imo. Your method forgives rampant spending by converting a future pick into the right to spend more. That's no disincentive. That's the BS we are trying to stop.

You also didn't say what happens to the Draft Pick. *poof* into thin air? The Union might not be happy with losing a draft pick in the draft....as compensation to a vet player.

 

Except guys signing for the minimum doesn't require an exception does it? And on top of that I don't want to prevent teams from signing guys for the minimum in general.

No you misunderstood me. I don't care if players are mad, I said teams will not want an angry player is why an extra waiver process isn't worth it. Utah for example wanted both Bogut and Deron, had the cap space to claim either one and opted not to because both players made it clear they didn't want to be there. That's the only issue I raised with unhappy players. The extra waiver wire won't matter.

Not really. It wouldn't be a method a team could keep utilizing. Even setting aside the draft pick for a minute, the financial penalty of having to count the full players salary against your luxury tax would be a lethal blow for many teams. I guarantee that if was going to add another $20 million to their luxury tax calculation, the Cavs would have thought twice about signing both guys. They already chose not to use their TPE for that reason.

You could figure out a way to compensate that pretty easily I would think. The money that would have gone to those players gets dispersed as bonuses, etc. But yes, that would be a logistical issue with the solution.

 

There needs to be a hardline stance in regards to who a team can sign mid-season. If you're bought out, you can't sign with a team over the cap, simple. If a team over the cap has an injured player, they can sign someone from the NBADL or make a trade. GS is entirely stacked, but Cleveland isn't in a whole other league in this regard.

 

J.R.s last post killed this thread. Same thing, different day. But a problem if LeBron benefits.

 

I just hate Ring Whores and Gold Diggers

Rocket River

 

Good for him he deserves for carrying this pathetic franchise his whole career besides a few years only to be b****ed out by the estrogen filled owner.

OP, shutup.

These front offices been running these players in the ground far too long and these players need to flip the game since they're the ones making the league billions annually.

People like OP are tampon boys.

 

It's not about LeBron. It's about super teams.

 

Super teams dominated every NBA era besides the 70's, the worst era in league history.

 

In the East, that is a distinction without a difference.

 

You post suggested that this discussion was about hating LeBron. I know you are a LeBron fan. But not everything is about him.

If Bogut was allowed to go to Golden State and he did, we would be talking about the same thing.

 

Maybe I've missed something here. But what I know and question are:
* 1: Why did the Mavs trade Bogut and waive DWill?
* 2: When Mavs traded bogut to 76's for Noel, why did 76's then waive Bogut knowing Embiid was out for the remainder of the season?

Cavs picked up Bogut on the cheap. Assuming Bogut had his GSW/Mavs contract paid out, he probably doesn't need the cash. But he was on a decent amount at GSW & Mavs.

SO... knowing guys waived like DWill & Bogut after having their contracts paid out would be willing to go on the cheap to a contender like the Cavs, it does seem quite suspicious (IMO) the reasons behind why decent contributors were waived to begin with.

 

You do this like it's some impulsive tick you have anytime your precious MJ kneepads need to come off so you can walk over to the keyboard. And I've finally figured it out!

Sorry I'm not sorry that you've been snuffed out as an MJ Idolist. 2323 23rd Avenue, 77023, N'est pas? The everlasting mancrush on MJ is the only thing I can think of that would make a sane dude - even THA dude as it were - to act this way.

This is a Rockets forum. Your MJ sleeper cell isn't wanted here and it's not needed here. If your hero hadn't bailed from '93-mid'95 he would still have the same number of championships that he has now but without the added mystique.

Jigs up Bru..err Dude...whatever. TL; TS; Just Right; IDGAF. You. got. got.

Please love your MJ!

 

Was it a discussion last year when GS got Varejao and the Spurs got Martin and Miller? Or two years before when the Clippers got Davis and Granger, and OKC got Butler? Or the year before that when we got Brooks?

 

Are you comparing Martin and Miller, two washed up guys who retired after the season, to Bogut who have been a major contributor to a contender until he was traded?

And yes, there was some indignation about Varejao going to the Warriors, which turned out to be a non factor. I remember there was some uproar about Butler going to OKC.

And none of OKC, Clippers, and Rockets were considered super teams. There were only three super teams in recent history: Miami, Cleveland, and Golden State, four if you count the 07-08 Celtics.

 

Of course they should be compared, all these guys signed for the minimum and for all intents and purposes they are minimum players. There will be complaining but there's always complaints like this in the NBA, I remember 99% of NBA fans complained when KD signed with the GSW doesn't mean they're gonna prevent it from happening when KD signed for the maximum salary.

If you're making the minimum and you are a free agent, you should have the right to go where you want to go, simple as that. The NBA has been doing this practice since the 80's, if you're gonna prevent this now just so Lebron can't get his super team then go back and take all the rings away from the Spurs, Pistons, Lakers, Celtics etc. because they all have vet minimum guys who clearly playing better than a minimum player in the NBA. In Fact, Michael Jordan played majority of his career making just 7M dollars, he made less money than a lot of his teammates including Pippen except for 1 year where he made like 36M. That's a gross underpayment for a guy many people say is the GOAT, take away his 6 rings now

BTW this topic is pointless, for a condition like this to be passed either the players or owners would want it to happen. Are players gonna be dumb enough to propose a rule that they can't play for the team they want to play on even if they are willing to make the minimum? Are owners gonna propose this and lose out on having quality guys on the cheap? The only ones who want this to happen is the OP who hates Lebron LOL. Good luck with that are you gonna put this in the next CBA without both players and owners knowing?