[Religion of Intolerance] Muslim Mass Attacks, Mar 13

I agree with you that the PKK is not primarily motivated by Islam. I am just referring to the many posts Islam apologists made in which they point out that most Kurds (as victims) are Muslims - as if that absolves Islam in some way.

I don't see those same posters coming out and pointing out that most Kurds are Muslims when they are the perpetrators of terror. Islam apologists only point out that fact when Kurds are victims.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/arts/was-the-islam-of-old-spain-truly-tolerant.html?pagewanted=all

But as many scholars have argued, this image is distorted. Even the Umayyad dynasty, begun by Abd al-Rahman in 756, was far from enlightened. Issues of succession were often settled by force. One ruler murdered two sons and two brothers. Uprisings in 805 and 818 in Córdoba were answered with mass executions and the destruction of one of the city's suburbs. Wars were accompanied by plunder, kidnappings and ransom. Córdoba itself was finally sacked by Muslim Berbers in 1013, its epochal library destroyed.

Andalusian governance was also based on a religious tribal model. Christians and Jews, who shared Islam's Abrahamic past, had the status of dhimmis -- alien minorities. They rose high but remained second-class citizens; one 11th-century legal text called them members of ''the devil's party.'' They were subject to special taxes and, often, dress codes. Violence also erupted, including a massacre of thousands of Jews in Grenada in 1066 and the forced exile of many Christians in 1126.

 

i agree , all people should obey by the law which is what Islam by the way encourage people to do even in non-Muslim country.

take a look at this (not all Jews follow Talmud, but a growing no. in Israel do, and the code is :do it but dont get cought)

[youtube]TdqZ-iMiIgA[/youtube]

[youtube]I2Lclgqy4Ps[/youtube]

 

Shouldn't you be assaulting breeders instead if you were a Milk-inspired terrorist?

 

We need a major secret CIA (w/help from MI6, FSB, etc..) project to create a propaganda war against these terrorist ideologies. We need to fund the moderates in these countries. Get them on the radio, television, in print. Major funding of their platforms. Start to change the ideology of the masses to squeeze them out. It will take years but it has to start now. Attacking them conventionally is ineffective and grows their legend and influence even stronger.

Of course this assumes those security organizations want to stop them. You could argue that many of their earlier projects and policies created these extremists. So who knows what their agenda is.

 

Even weaker.

You'll have to do better than that.

 

No - that would fail and potentially backfire.

We need to pressure the gov't of these countries to reform and modernize their societies and not just ban but actually enforce that ban of honor killings. But no country likes meddling from an outside power and it will not be easy, but until we make it a priority, it will be a problem.

The only way the U.S. can succeed is for the U.S. to deliver on the promise of its ideals - that is equality for all. Until we make human rights the primary focus of foreign policy - this problem with continue to fester. Even with constant pressure, this will take decades and decades. Change doesn't happen quickly.

 

None of this is untrue, but it's Queen Isabella that forced the exile of all Jews in Spain (if they wouldn't convert to Catholicism) -- and it was North Africa that took them. Despite the twice again exile much later in the mid-20th century it's still Queen Isabella that gets the the most of the animosity. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would rather stay in Barcelona than move to Jerusalem or Tripoli.

Mizrachi and Sefardic Jews were much more integrated than their Ashkenazi counterparts in their adopted homes and were only parties to Zionism when it was forced on them when their Muslim neighbors and leaders turned on them as a way of extracting revenge on Israel, whom most had no connection to until they were forced to flee there. Point is, life wasn't so bad until the rise of political Islam, at least in the parts of the Muslim world where Jews had long settled. It's also telling that living Mirachi Israeli grandparents and great-grandparents speak French or Arabic rather than a diaspora dialect like Yiddish and while having suffered expulsion and discrimination, never faced anything like the systematic killings in Czarist Russia or Nazi Germany.

If we take a long look at Jewish history, King Mohammed of Morocco is quite a step up from the family values of Queen Isabella or King Edward I.

 

You can't do it openly as that will create more animosity towards the west. The infiltration and subversion of the Islamic World must target all levels of society in secret. Rebuild the Islam World ideology in secret and over a long period of time.

It can be done, the Soviets did it to American Universities and no one noticed.

 

I am not an Islam apologist, I just think it is ridiculous that we are allowing a terrorist act done by non Muslims (the PKK) to be used as evidence for criticizing Islam. It would be like using the actions of the Bolsheviks as evidence for condemning Russian Orthodoxy -- it makes no sense, and it needs to be called out. And you trying to wave away me bringing up facts really shows where the level of discourse on this issue is -- namely, not a good place.

It also really illustrates the true reasoning of those being critical of Islam as a whole based on terrorist attacks that occur in the middle east. People want to lump all the terrorist attacks as tied to Islam, ignoring actual facts (like they were actually done by the PKK) and ignoring economic, political and historical conditions.

Look, I am opposed to religion in general, I am an athiest. I think political Islam has done a terrible amount of damage in the world, and I think the increasing levels of political Christianity in America, Russia, Greece, and other countries is also a threat to the liberty of those people. You will not find me apologizing for Islam or any other religions.

What you will find me doing is arguing that facts need to be taken into account, and you and others trying to reject facts because of partisan divisions is not helping anything.

 

Yes, and that was such a resounding success.

 

The same is true in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Only until recently, Islamic parties were considered if not a moderating presence, one less political in ambition and far less bloodthirsty (and more appealing to Israeli leadership). That didn't work out so well. For anyone.

Even today, many of the worst terror attacks in Israel are orchestrated by the secular, Marxist (and relatively speaking, anachronistic)PFLP that recognizes neither Hamas or PA governments (though they are still collectively blamed when either one fails to prevent the PFLP from killing Israelis).

It's the actions of groups like the PFLP in the Cold War than alienated many and drove them towards groups like Hamas (with a bit of help of the Shin Bet). CIA efforts in Afghanistan in the 80s did the same for many Afghanis.

Reviving clandestine efforts to assert this kind of influence in the Mid-East is a turrible idea.

 

Cohete, you suck harder at trolling than you do with arguments, which I'm not even sure is possible--but you've managed it so I guess it is.

Try to stick with one or the other--you're equally terrible at both

Neither Jesus nor Muhammed are models I think anybody should look up to, which makes sense because they f**king lived and died centuries ago.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...=0306816083&linkCode=as2&tag=atheistrevolu-20

 

more like assaulting Twinkies

 

Every religion has terrorists and other "true believers" and given the kind of power Islam has in their respective states, would be just as selective about which bits of scripture to justify murder (or rewriting history or refuting science). Christianity and Judaism and Hinduism didn't reform -- people did. Well, at least most of us.

They chose democratic governments, religious tolerance, and secular worldviews because they essentially had to if they wanted to remain in an evolving, post-enlightenment world, all of which contradicted their own religions, too.

The West is incredibly patronizing of the Muslim world, as if they are children who are subject to a different standard, and completely dismissive of Muslim secular writers, intellectuals and movements as irrelevant, and instead tried to hold hands with men who give speeches about the threat of wizards and wring their hands wondering why they are inspired to commit atrocities.

It's great that the Pope isn't launching Crusades or Inquisitions any longer, but we are fooling ourselves if we thing the problem is fixed and shrug and walk on. When we tolerate a Christian leader holding gay people having sex with each other responsible for a hurricane or earthquake, or that the fossil record is a trick from God to test our faith, we also are being entirely hypocritical. Snicker all you like, but that mechanism does work the same way. The only reason those people aren't oppressing women and killing unbelievers is because we enforce laws that don't permit it. Given a political vacuum to operate in, they wouldn't be very different than our fellow wizard-killing simians in the Arabian desert.

 

It's unbelievable how quick and successful they actually were. Most American Universities are filled with far left socialists.

 

Get back to me when you are done with the tinfoil hat

 

If you think the faculty of American universities are extreme left-wingers, I'd expect the culture-shock to be severe if you attended courses anywhere else in the world.

At the university I work at, most faculty are adjuncts paid by the class, essentially making less than minimum wage with benefits worse than staff, and fighting for what few positions offering tenure exist. If they were die-hard communists, I would be the last to blame them, and I certainly wouldn't credit tonedeaf Stalin-era KGB programs for that.

 

Now you are bringing it, but where's the rest?

 

Thank you bringing facts in this conversation. I'm Turkish and living in Ankara. I know PKK did the yesterday bombing but somehow OP jump the gun and said it was ISIS.

BTW I'm not saying this because i feel sympathy for ISIS. Screw ISIS. But it's important to tell the truth about this important issues.